THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK
Go Back   THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK > Miscellanea > Members > Personal
Home Forums Content Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Contagion Members Media Diversion Info Register
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes Translate
Old 07-19-2016   #81
James's Avatar
James
Grimscribe
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,729
Quotes: 0
Points: 19,365, Level: 96 Points: 19,365, Level: 96 Points: 19,365, Level: 96
Level up: 17% Level up: 17% Level up: 17%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

I seem to find it easier to avoid celebrity culture than most. I couldn't pick Justin Beiber out of a lineup, but every YouTube comment on every music video bashes him for being everywhere.

'I believe in what the Germans term Ehrfurcht: reverence for things one cannot understand.'
― Robert Aickman, An Essay
James is offline   Reply With Quote
3 Thanks From:
miguel1984 (07-19-2016), Nirvana In Karma (07-19-2016), ToALonelyPeace (07-20-2016)
Old 07-20-2016   #82
gveranon's Avatar
gveranon
Grimscribe
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,115
Quotes: 0
Points: 27,582, Level: 100 Points: 27,582, Level: 100 Points: 27,582, Level: 100
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

Quote Originally Posted by Gray House View Post
Quote Originally Posted by gveranon View Post
Harm-based pessimism, as you depict it, seems so reductive as to be a misdescription of human life. The focus is on the primal level of qualities of experience, but this is not the conceptual level of typical human experience most of the time. Typical human experience isn't even conceptualized as experience most of the time (varieties of acting, goal-seeking, and reflecting are more frequent conceptualizations), and other valuations are often more relevant than whether it feels good or bad. For these reasons, I find approaches to pessimism pursued by Schopenhauer, Cioran, Zapffe, and Ligotti to be more compelling than harm-based pessimism. Those authors are keenly aware of qualities of experience, of course, but they are also concerned, however negatively, with conceptual realms of activity and meaning. If most humans don't usually experience life in terms of harm-based consequentialism, then harm-based consequentialism (a philosophy relentlessly focused on experience) doesn't speak accurately about human experience.
Consciously acting, goal-seeking, reflecting, and everything else that happens in consciousness is some combination of feeling and thought. Thought would be evaluatively irrelevant without connection to feelings.
Yes, but from this it does not follow that experience should be evaluated simply in terms of qualities of feeling. That isn't even what feeling feels like for sentient beings in the world! Feelings as they are experienced usually pertain to situations and objects, and if you simply evaluate the feelings qualitatively, without reference to the situations and objects, your evaluation is based on a misdescription of what it is actually like to feel those feelings in the circumstances in which they are felt. This problem of misdescription of actual experience is fatal to an ethics focused on qualities of experience.

This abstracted and one-dimensional account of experience would not be recognizable to most experiencers as an accurate account of experience. Just as much as feelings are what ethics are about, ethics are about the interests of those who feel. Such a mutilated account of experience effectively leaves experiencers out of the equation, because it leaves many of those experiencers' interests in their own experiences out of the equation. Experiencers have interest in more than a one-dimensional account that falsifies their actual experience. Whom is an ethic of experience on behalf of if not on behalf of experiencers? ​Experience is always the experience of an individual in a situation. All components of that are relevant to an ethical evaluation of the experience itself.

Quote Originally Posted by Gray House View Post
Quote Originally Posted by gveranon View Post
But the "rational" self-interest of an individual and the interests of others are often in conflict. And, at least in most situations, it is impossible to determine the interest of the whole, because individuals within the whole want and need different things.
Their reasons for wanting what they want and the costs in harms can be compared.
One would have to be omniscient to be in a position to adequately compare everyone's wants and needs. Accurately comparing the costs in harms would involve enormously sophisticated data modeling and an ability to predict the future. If you maintain that, generally, different types of wants and needs wouldn't be that hard to compare, and that merely probable harms could be predicted and meaningfully quantified... these claims would not only be fanciful but massively presumptuous. Making all of this easy enough to actually accomplish would entail giving up on both accuracy and justice. If you could administer some rough justice, it would be very rough justice indeed. If harm-based consequentialism were judged by its own terms (harms, consequences), it would be found badly wanting.
gveranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
antinatalism, depression, discussion, personal, pessimists

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Female pessimists? actualwolf CATHR Online Comments 47 11-29-2016 08:46 AM
Good advice for Pessimists and Antinatalists Malone Personal 4 07-20-2016 11:50 AM
Ligotti about pessimists in CATHR Matthias M. General Discussion 2 08-18-2015 06:47 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:09 PM.



Style Based on SONGS OF A DEAD DREAMER as Published by Silver Scarab Press
Design and Artwork by Harry Morris
Emulated in Hell by Dr. Bantham
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Template-Modifications by TMS