Snared in a Trap

[sleepybutawake]

The lyrics you are thinking of are "Caught in a Trap." The name of the song is "Suspicious Minds." Big hit for Elvis.

The lyrics you have here are all wrong (though I can see how they might relate...and lets be honest: no words can capture the awesomeness of that phasered cymbal at the climax).

Still, try to be more attentive to the stuff you are putting out there.

[sundog]

Quote Originally Posted by sleepybutawake

The lyrics you are thinking of are "Caught in a Trap." The name of the song is "Suspicious Minds." Big hit for Elvis. The lyrics you have here are all wrong

I'm not thinking of any other lyrics than the ones posted. And as such they are completely right. Go figure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfRq7Rc86V8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfRq7Rc86V8

[sleepybutawake]

Listen man, Elvis made that song famous not only for how he sang it, but also what he sang. You don't get to just run around changing the lyrics to hit songs just to make them fit into your twisted world view.

Weird Al can do that, but none of us will ever be as weird as him. At this point in the thread, I think it would be really classy of you to apologize to me, Weird Al, and -most of all- Elvis.

[sundog]

Quote Originally Posted by sleepybutawake

Listen man, Elvis made that song famous not only for how he sang it, but also what he sang. You don't get to just run around changing the lyrics to hit songs just to make them fit into your twisted world view. Weird Al can do that, but none of us will ever be as weird as him. At this point in the thread, I think it would be really classy of you to apologize to me, Weird Al, and -most of all- Elvis.

Screw you. I'm not a fan. Nor did I change the lyrics.

[sleepybutawake]

Well if you aren't going to take this serious than I'm not going to participate anymore. But I tell you this: people will be talking about this in Graceland.

You can count on it...

[sundog]

Quote Originally Posted by sleepybutawake

Well if you aren't going to take this serious than I'm not going to participate anymore. But I tell you this: people will be talking about this in Graceland.

It's called GRAVELAND.

[Russell Nash]

Quote Originally Posted by Malone

The AN argument is relatively simple: life contains unavoidable suffering; there is no guarantee of pleasure, nor does pleasure cancel out pain. Unless one believes in a god who demands humans perpetuate themselves, there is no imperative or necessity to procreate. Therefore in order to avoid creating pain, do not reproduce. It's a simple philosophy based on compassion. Say No To Life: The Cult of Life

By reading from what you just said: "life contains suffering", and "there is no guarantee of pleasure", I deduce that you don't like suffering but you do like pleasure. Is perhaps AN just a philosophy born from discontent? Imagine that life contains a minimum amount of suffering, would it then be worth living? Is therefore this apparent lack of ultimate pleasure the only reason that impulses a person to accept AN? This would mean that AN is just another philosophy based on our five senses.

The quotes from the book by Ligotti reminds me of a question: Isn't it illogical to condemn perpetuation when we are the result of two people who precisely did not think this way?

Regarding what God thinks or not, I couldn't care less whether God exists or not. As far as I know, there is no proof of the existence of God. Do you realize that modern day people practically have refuted the existence of God. When a religious person has a headache: doesn't he /she takes an aspirin, that small thing created by materialists, atheists, and scientists? Or does he/she pray...? So, I don't think the argument in favor of or against the existence of God has anything to do with perpetuation. Besides, it is not perpetuation, unless you think that your kids are an extension of your brain, DNA, or whatever makes you what you are. There is continuation, but not perpetuation. Continuation as in a street that continues with another but it is not the same and perhaps has nothing to do with that one.

"There is no imperative or necessity to procreate", Who says that there is any?

"Therefore in order to avoid creating pain, do not reproduce." We can also say that in order to avoid pain do not eat hot peppers (to avoid stomach pain). It is not clear why you say that reproduction creates pain. It seems to me that you are writing a statement that looks like a logical proposition, before certain things were proven. This is not logical reasoning.

Thus, reproduction does not produce pain, unless someone has some physical problem. Life does not produce pain either. In fact, life does not exist other than in our brains, as a conception. What is life, by the way? Another unsolved mystery.

I believe you have a job, and perhaps you don't like this job ( I don't like mine), so why keep it if it produces suffering? How do you think I get money to buy Ligotti's books, does Ligotti give them for free? No. How do I measure pleasure, or suffering? Let me see, eight hours suffering in a job I don't like are equivalent to the pleasure to "own" a book by Ligotti? Pleasure and suffering are also relative concepts impossible to measure. You see we always do things in life that inflict on us pain (suffering) but in exchange for a small dose of pleasure. Similarly, even if procreation produces pain (which it doesn't), this is not a reason to preach AN.

I understand that people like AN, some other don't. We can all live in peace. I guess.

[Acutely decayed]

Quote Originally Posted by sundog

Quote Originally Posted by sleepybutawake Well if you aren't going to take this serious than I'm not going to participate anymore. But I tell you this: people will be talking about this in Graceland. It's called GRAVELAND.

perhaps Ligotti has " a lot of the power E had" or maybe vice versa

"I walk along a thin line darling
Dark shadows follow me
Here's where life's dream lies disillusioned
The edge of reality"

Elvis Presley Edge Of Reality - YouTube

Elvis Presley Edge Of Reality - YouTube

[sundog]

Were Married to a Deranged and Insatiable Monster - YouTube

Were Married to a Deranged and Insatiable Monster - YouTube

[Malone]

Russell Nash, you seem to be taking refuge in a lot of woolly statements in order to avoid confronting the real issue: why should people choose to reproduce, knowing what they do about the human condition and the species as a whole?

"This would mean that AN is just another philosophy based on our five senses."

Exactly what philosophy isn't based on sense experience and the reflective process?

"Isn't it illogical to condemn perpetuation when we are the result of two people who precisely did not think this way?"

Is that an argument? There are plenty of people who regret having been born. Are we supposed to just blindly follow our procreators' example? We have the capacity to reflect and make our own moral decisions.

Continuation/Perpetuation. A meaningless semantic quibble. The creation of new life is the issue, call it what you will.

'"There is no imperative or necessity to procreate", Who says that there is any?'

A standard reaction to AN is "But then the species would die out!" or "Humanity would come to an end!" or some variant. So plenty of people, including most atheists, think that the perpetuation of the species is a necessity. It's not.

"Thus, reproduction does not produce pain, unless someone has some physical problem. Life does not produce pain either."

Every single life contains pain. Do you dispute this? For some the pain is unbearable: 1 million people commit suicide every year. 25,000 die of starvation every day. Not to mention wars, genocides, murders, depression etc etc. To say life does not produce pain is to don the rosiest of rose-tinted glasses. Pain is an integral part of life, not some accidental by-product.

"In fact, life does not exist other than in our brains, as a conception. What is life, by the way? Another unsolved mystery." Taking refuge in a vague form of Idealism in order to avert your eyes from the facts is not satisfactory. As for your example about work, pleasure etc that only applies to those already living, who are obliged to make the best of the situation into which they've been thrown. AN asks why bring new people into existence in the first place.