Suggest some authors of pessimistic bent

[DoktorH]

Quote Originally Posted by RaleC

What once kept us safe: The impulse to ask what are the other successful monkeys doing? I'll do that and I'll survive. Monkey-see-monkey-do is now actually leading to our own downfall as a species. The insecure, greedy, lazy, psychotic, bored, romantic &c. impulses in us can look out at society and find peer-acceptance as a Juggalos; Real-Housewives Of Consumerville; Rockstars; Rhyming Criminals; Capitalist Apprentices; Kids pretending to be mythological creatures; Victorian Sentimentalists &c. Any time spent with any of these scenes will leave the lasting impression that we're living in an open air asylum where the only sane thing to do is nothing. The alternative to buying into one of the many bizarre dreamworlds is retreating to nostalgia - the longing for a past state of blissful ignorance; or maturing, accepting it and doing what you can to make your tiny impact on the planet a positive one.

I didn't know pessimism was a thing. I thought it was just a way of thinking that has produced the juggalos, housewives of consumerville, etc. life is not alright, and people can't always see a chance to make a tiny positive impact, so they barricade themselves behind clown makeup, consumer goods, or whatever protection their scene offers rather than stare that lack of alrightness in the face.

[Acutely decayed]

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Quote Originally Posted by RaleC

Any time spent with any of these scenes will leave the lasting impression that we're living in an open air asylum where the only sane thing to do is nothing. The alternative to buying into one of the many bizarre dreamworlds is retreating to nostalgia - the longing for a past state of blissful ignorance; or maturing, accepting it and doing what you can to make your tiny impact on the planet a positive one.

I think, maybe, to some pessimists the "accepting it and doing what you can to make your tiny impact on the planet a positive one" may also represent retreat into just another "bizarre dreamworld" rather than a decision stemming from doing the "sane thing"

It is no more objectively supported as a choice than any of the earlier lifestyle choices listed.

I am not against it, and think it is a worthy choice but it is based on faith - nothing objective. (I am not devaluing faith - just saying it is something everyone has without realising it to some degree - to function at all)


I have read the abridged Golden Bough, I am just not limiting my definition of faith to conventional faiths or magical thinking - then again if politicians were to serve for seven years with subsequent public conflagaration we would save a lot on superannuation ;).....

Sorry for waffling...Whenever I get into these discussions I realise how unformed my opinions are... half the time I just delete the post...

[RaleC]

Quote Originally Posted by Acutely decayed

I think, maybe, to some pessimists the "accepting it and doing what you can to make your tiny impact on the planet a positive one" may also represent retreat into just another "bizarre dreamworld" rather than a decision stemming from doing the "sane thing"

The choice to do right in an uncaring universe despite every inch of the inner-adolescent wanting to rage, rage, against the dying of the light and all that (D.Thomas) is about the only choice we make as men rather than monkeys. There's no eternal reward. No material reward. And, if you're keeping your head down - no one even notices, so there is no reward to the ego.

This conversation reminds me of The Desert Fathers from Helen Wadell's book. It's about men and women who retreated from the urban centers and towns into solitude (a proximity of miles between each other) to best their own human impulses: the sexual urge, gluttony, the braggart, the bitchy part of them silently doubting their alleged friends - they did this to find their /true/ self beyond all the social pressure and animal urges; and they called the process faith, which is quite different from what their descendents call faith. What is fascinating, and relevant, about The Desert Fathers is that despite being labeled as the first Christians - the majority (ostensibly all of them but who knows) pursued their version of faith without a literal belief in Jesus Christ as having ever existed - they considered him a model and metaphor for self-betterment and everything else unknowable; they just wanted to find out what they were beneath the raging waves of their own impulses. A social fiction to escape from social fictions.

I mention this to address your remark on faith and to demonstrate that, it's possible that the superior species you postulated learned how to live alone, stared long into the abyss, and come back to live together and make a concerted effort for a sane functional selfless society and did not just wail, with hand at brow, over the abyss before flinging themselves into it.

"The only proof of intelligent life out there in the universe is that they haven't bothered contacting us." Calvin & Hobbes, Bill Watterson.

Damn I'm back to optimism - and by "thing" i meant it's being used as a dogma in this case, which is okay! It's a grouping of certain works for the purposes of creating a clique with Lovecraft (in particular) and his assertions that he was a rationalist, and a materialist &c. but these men are dreamers and romantics. Pessimists have nothing to prove and if they did it would not be in the manufacturing of excellent dreamworlds. Mouchette by Robert Bresson and Winter Light by Ignmar Bergman come to mind as great works of Pessimism. Both are films. And both speak of a louder more plangent Pessimism than anything with the supernatural as it's backbone. In any case maybe it's a sober romanticism, rather than pessimism, offered by guys like Lovecraft, Ligotti and The Desert Fathers - "There's nothing but wouldn't this be wonderful."

Perhaps skepticism could be a better term to use. "There's nothing, but there might be vast black forces amassing beyond the perimeters of the visible world to eat our souls and sanity." Nope, still romantic.

And, for the record I visited the Starbucks where Lovecraft's family house once stood, and his grave, last year.

[DoktorH]

Quote Originally Posted by RaleC

Perhaps skepticism could be a better term to use. "There's nothing, but there might be vast black forces amassing beyond the perimeters of the visible world to eat our souls and sanity." Nope, still romantic.

i WANT there to be vast black forces beyond the perimeters of the visible world amassing to eat our souls and sanity! it frustrates me that they either aren't there or are taking their sweet time about it, and i worry that souls and sanity will be in short supply by the time they show up, and that we'll have devolved too far to be interesting by the time they get here, leaving them no choice but to give us some spark of cleverness in the hopes that we can get back to what we were and be a tastier meal the next time they stop by.

on the plus side, it is not hard to find a street to drive or walk down and get the impression that i'm in the middle of This Degenerate Little Town, and it's easy enough to collude with some clique or other and feel like an inhabitant of the Unholy City, so even though Life Is Not All Right, it's not too bad, either.

[Gray House]

Quote Originally Posted by RaleC

Quote Originally Posted by Acutely decayed I think, maybe, to some pessimists the "accepting it and doing what you can to make your tiny impact on the planet a positive one" may also represent retreat into just another "bizarre dreamworld" rather than a decision stemming from doing the "sane thing" The choice to do right in an uncaring universe despite every inch of the inner-adolescent wanting to rage, rage, against the dying of the light and all that (D.Thomas) is about the only choice we make as men rather than monkeys. There's no eternal reward. No material reward. And, if you're keeping your head down - no one even notices, so there is no reward to the ego.

I think nothing is ever done without a personal reward of some sort. Anyone with moral feeling must act according to their moral feeling or that person will feel bad about not doing so. If I ask myself, "Why do I believe in doing the right thing?" I can come up with no objective reason other than the ultimate reason for everything I believe: that is how the machine that is me is set up to function. William S. Burroughs said "Love? What is it? The most natural painkiller what there is." I would say that morality is another natural painkiller, and one that ideally has the excellent property of killing the pains of others as well as those of the primary subject.

[Acutely decayed]

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Quote Originally Posted by Gray House

I think nothing is ever done without a personal reward of some sort. Anyone with moral feeling must act according to their moral feeling or that person will feel bad about not doing so. If I ask myself, "Why do I believe in doing the right thing?" I can come up with no objective reason other than the ultimate reason for everything I believe: that is how the machine that is me is set up to function. William S. Burroughs said "Love? What is it? The most natural painkiller what there is." I would say that morality is another natural painkiller, and one that ideally has the excellent property of killing the pains of others as well as those of the primary subject.

exactly!, but said more succinctly and clearly than I ever could, I would add where you stop dissecting causes is what you settle on as "you" - why not stop as a consumer in a rubbish society?, why stop in a retreat in the desert free from all obvious influence? why stop until you reach an unconditioned self-directed motiveless replicator? the decision that "you" seem to be making to stop at a particular level of introspection is caused also...

"There's nothing but wouldn't this be wonderful." - this is immensely appealing to me, and I agree (citing Dr H) some peoples wonderful may be quite nightmarish - but I think TL is now more than ever an "If there was nothing wouldn't it be wonderful" kind of guy.....

[RaleC]

Quote Originally Posted by DoktorH

it is not hard to find a street to drive or walk down and get the impression that i'm in the middle of This Degenerate Little Town

In the dark streets we sought to make the light that must exist more visible; some were defeated by those dark places; became more cogs in the mechanisms of the malign machinery; but the rest -- the few -- just wandered forever with eyes fixed upon stars whose light had long ago gone out but lingered on, dreaming of how wonderful that light would be if it were to exist; themselves that rare glow in otherwise empty skies.

[Malone]

"I think, maybe, to some pessimists the "accepting it and doing what you can to make your tiny impact on the planet a positive one" may also represent retreat into just another "bizarre dreamworld" rather than a decision stemming from doing the "sane thing" It is no more objectively supported as a choice than any of the earlier lifestyle choices listed. "

Sure, but all anyone can do is eventually make a personal, existential decision based on the data at hand and their moral position. Morality doesn't exist in any objective, mind-independent manner, so all we will ever have is an ongoing dialogue between the optimists, pessimists and all in between until the curtain comes down on the species/planet. I'm an Antinatalist, but I don't ever expect humanity to voluntarily stop breeding. It seems almost inconceivable. Nevertheless, that won't stop me from pursuing my own choices based on my moral evaluation of the 'life-situation', which has led me to what may be regarded as an ultra-pessimistic perspective. Personally, it is indeed a "retreat", but a retreat from the standard position, not, I think, into a "bizzare dreamworld".

[RaleC]

Quote Originally Posted by Malone

I'm an Antinatalist, but I don't ever expect humanity to voluntarily stop breeding.

What is it about intelligence that /chooses/ not to replicate it's genetics? The people who should be breeding do not, while the ones without the economic means, maturity, and intellect pop out kids like artillery fire. Perhaps intellect is considered a dry gully by the standards of the collective unconscious?

[DoktorH]

Quote Originally Posted by RaleC

Quote Originally Posted by Malone I'm an Antinatalist, but I don't ever expect humanity to voluntarily stop breeding. What is it about intelligence that /chooses/ not to replicate it's genetics? The people who should be breeding do not, while the ones without the economic means, maturity, and intellect pop out kids like artillery fire. Perhaps intellect is considered a dry gully by the standards of the collective unconscious?

My theory: Intelligent people are more likely to find engaging, rewarding ways of spending their time that don't involve reproducing. the less intelligent/mature/etc people aren't able to come up with anything engaging/rewarding to do on their own and resort to sex. I'm not sure if intelligence or desire to have sex is a factor, but they seem more susceptible to that high-pitched "do what I want you to do or I will keep making this sound until I die from the effort and then you will feel horribly guilty for not obeying me" noise emitted by children and some breeds of cat.

In my religion, there is a belief that extradimensional creatures created humans to feed on human suffering - our pain is their major food source. I am religious enough to seriously believe this, and i believe children are a big part of that anguish-farming system.