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Old 07-28-2009   #1
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Topic Nominated The End of Time

The team's proposal, which will be published in the journal Physical Review D, does away altogether with dark energy. Instead, Prof Senovilla says, the appearance of acceleration is caused by time itself gradually slowing down..

The group bases its idea on one particular variant of superstring theory, a so called theory of everything, in which our universe is confined to the surface of a membrane, or brane, floating in a higher-dimensional space, known as the "bulk".

In some number of billions of years, time would cease to be time altogether - and everything will stop.

"Then everything will be frozen, like a snapshot of one instant, forever,"..



Time is running out - literally, says scientist - Telegraph

Perhaps the professor from "The Mad Night of Atonement" will get his wish, in time.

"The failed magician waves his wand, and in an instant the laughter is gone." - Martin Gore

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Old 07-28-2009   #2
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Re: The End of Time

I'm reminded of a Burroughs quote: "Time is a resource; time runs out."

Of course, at the very end, they mention in passing that such a projection is based on limited data, although they don't phrase it in such a way. Science is unquestionably right until science says otherwise.

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Old 07-28-2009   #3
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Re: The End of Time

I don't see how time itself can slow down. If we say that anything else is slowing down we surely mean that it takes a longer time. But how could time itself take a longer time? Is there supposed to be some kind of meta-time by which we measure the speed of time itself? Would the meta-time slow down when measured by meta-meta-time? Or is the concept of time slowing down simply absurd?

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Old 07-28-2009   #4
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Re: The End of Time

[Instead, if time gradually slows "but we naively kept using our equations to derive the changes of the expansion with respect of 'a standard flow of time'...] from Time is running out - literally, says scientist - Telegraph

To some scientists (many? few?) "Time" does not exist. Basically because it is impossible to know what it is, and whether or not a clock measures Time is still open to debate. It is rather a conventional symbol that brings some order to our lives. Imagine our world without the idea of Time, How would one say what he did yesterday, or is going to do tomorrow? So, we still use it. But the basic question, "what is Time made of?" has no answer. That's why some (like me) believe it does not exist.

However, according to modern physics, and due to the speed of light (which apparently it is the same from the beginning of time), we have very strange equations that allow us to have different "perceptions of time", although only one "arrow of time" that always goes forward. Theoretically, if one falls into a black hole, his time slows down compared to a time measured outside of it. Practically, it was measured having two atomic clocks, one at the bottom of a tall building (I believed it was the Empire State building), and one more at the top. Both clocks, after certain time (measured by a reference clock, other than those two), they were put together, and they were not showing the same time. The one at the bottom slows down. Then, theoretically, if instead of the Earth, we have a black hole, the time measured by the clock would slow down more and more, depending on our distance to the center of the black hole, where all its mass would be located.

Someone inside the Space Station is measuring time faster than Odalisque, on the surface of Earth. But also someone driving a formula one race car (by the effect of speed) is slowing down time. I don't have the numbers but if you live on a car speeding at 200 miles an hour, all your life, let's say (with the purpose of showing the effects) that you gain one microsecond, more or less. Not much really, that's way scientists use atomic clocks to verify it.

Other theories, Hawking's in particular, propose a no-Time beginning for the Big Bang.

Other scientists, understand that "dark matter" and "dark energy" are defects of an imperfect theory. If the original Law of Gravity described by Newton is modified, we don't have any more black holes, dark matter, or dark energy. The scientific community does not want to do that for the simple reason that this adjustment would be "ad hoc" and not derived form observation, but it is not discarded yet.

The article just refers to another theory, one of so many that are around lately.

Whether Time exists, or not, is still open to debate.

Odalisque, even if you or me understand it or not, Time slows down and the effect was already measured.

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Old 07-28-2009   #5
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Re: The End of Time

This article says more or less the same but with math,
Time_dilation Time_dilation
However, it has plenty of data regarding the effect called "time Dilation". Just go directly to Experimental Confirmation.

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Old 07-28-2009   #6
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Re: The End of Time

Quote Originally Posted by Russell Nash View Post
This article says more or less the same but with math,
Time dilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
However, it has plenty of data regarding the effect called "time Dilation". Just go directly to Experimental Confirmation.
In so far as I understand that (which may not be very far) time only slows relatively from one place (clock) to another. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with time slowing an absolute sense.

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Old 07-28-2009   #7
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Re: The End of Time

[Prof Senovilla says: "One thing that is definitely not included in our models is the possibility of having more than one time dimension."]

I would say that anybody that suggests that is mad. But one has to interview those scientists "in person" and see if what they think was not really distorted by what the journalist really understands.

[If time is indeed slowing down, so that according to this new suggestion our solitary time dimension is slowly turning into a new space dimension, then the far-distant, ancient stars seen by cosmologists would therefore, from our perspective, look as though they were accelerating.]

This statement is also hard to digest. Even though Hawking says that time was another spatial dimension in the beginning of time.

Personally when I read these articles I don't take them too seriously, because to truly understand the theory one has to read the paper and find out by himself.

Regarding your question, nobody says that there is an "absolute time" anymore after 1905. Whoever proclaims that must be mad.

However, what these scientists apparently proposed is: instead of saying that the Universe accelerates, let's assume that it still expands at the same rate but time slows down, which makes according to them more or less the same scenario.

Basically 1/2 hour, but billions of years ago, is now 1 hour, and it is soon going to be 2 hours, in billions of years. It is the same hour, though. But if measured one compared to the other, it looks like time is slowing down. If they can prove it, they are right. Otherwise, well, they are not.

Decades ago, there was a proposal that stated that the speed of time was slowing down (or the opposite, I don't remember). It couldn't be proved. Therefore, it is still "c", it was "c", and it is going to be "c". The same with this new theory. Prove it, and then we talk.

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Old 07-28-2009   #8
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Re: The End of Time

I am greatly relieved that Milk-Bone production will not be compromised or slowed down until total entropy actually sets in.

"Like a dog!" he said; it was as if the shame of it must outlive him. - Franz Kafka, The Trial
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Old 07-28-2009   #9
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Re: The End of Time

Does a clock measures time? Yes? How...?

We often listen to scientists say: "time flows..." Certainly, it does not. It flows, really? but where...? Water of a river flows from a place to another, but time flows from where to where...? Oh! Yes. It flows from "Past" to "Future" according to entropy. Really? Where is the Future, now? Where is the Past, now? I'm sure that "Past" doesn't exist now, not anymore, because we are living the Present, now. And it cannot flow to "Future" because it doesn't exist yet. So, does time flow? ...from something that doesn't exist anymore to something that doesn't exist yet. Perhaps, are we mad?

Which proof do we have of the existence of time, after all? It permeates everything, someone says. Really? How? What does time do to interact with me and make me grow older? We know of 4 forces that make everything possible, but none of them is used by time. Then, how does time do it?

But if time doesn't flow, and it is not the cause of someone aging, then time doesn't exist. That's my point. Sir, how do you explain that things seems to move through time...? Things move, yeah, but not through time, through Space. We naturally move in Space without any need of creating a mysterious entity called time. Movement is created by matter relocating itself in Space. It is an error to suppose that without time, we stop moving, aging, dying. Who says that movement is an effect of time? I mean an effect of "something" that we can't test, measure, touch, smell, experience in any way. So where is time after all? and what is it made of? We don't know what Space is made of, but at least we can touch it.

We are so accustomed to use the word time, that we believe it exists. With the word time the following sentence makes sense: "Alberto, your conjectures are a waste of my time". How do we say the same sentence without the word time?

Again, does a clock measures time?

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Old 07-29-2009   #10
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Re: The End of Time

Quote Originally Posted by Russell Nash View Post
We often listen to scientists say: "time flows..." Certainly, it does not. It flows, really? but where...? Water of a river flows from a place to another, but time flows from where to where...? Oh! Yes. It flows from "Past" to "Future" according to entropy. Really? Where is the Future, now? Where is the Past, now? I'm sure that "Past" doesn't exist now, not anymore, because we are living the Present, now. And it cannot flow to "Future" because it doesn't exist yet. So, does time flow? ...from something that doesn't exist anymore to something that doesn't exist yet. Perhaps, are we mad?

But if time doesn't flow, and it is not the cause of someone aging, then time doesn't exist. That's my point. Sir, how do you explain that things seems to move through time...? Things move, yeah, but not through time, through Space. We naturally move in Space without any need of creating a mysterious entity called time. Movement is created by matter relocating itself in Space. It is an error to suppose that without time, we stop moving, aging, dying. Who says that movement is an effect of time? I mean an effect of "something" that we can't test, measure, touch, smell, experience in any way. So where is time after all? and what is it made of? We don't know what Space is made of, but at least we can touch it.
I thought this was interesting. I think that not everyone agrees that time is a dimension, but if it were, wouldn't that obviate the necessity of time having to flow anywhere, or be made of anything, since we would simply be moving through it in the way we move through space? We never see all of space at one view, so why should we see all of time at one view? Our means of perception are limited.

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