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Old 03-09-2017   #11
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Re: Are you a good person?

Not all values are 'arbitrary'.

We are physical creatures, grounded in the physical.
A man starving to death, a man being flayed alive, a man dying of a horrible disease knows that freedom from pain, from suffering, from hunger, is an Absolute value dictated by our physical existence. The intellect plays no part here. None at all.

A man caught between the couplers of two freight cars does not spend his last minutes reflecting unpon Nietzsche.
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Old 03-09-2017   #12
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Re: Are you a good person?

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic View Post
Not all values are 'arbitrary'.

We are physical creatures, grounded in the physical.
A man starving to death, a man being flayed alive, a man dying of a horrible disease knows that freedom from pain, from suffering, from hunger, is an Absolute value dictated by our physical existence. The intellect plays no part here. None at all.

A man caught between the couplers of two freight cars does not spend his last minutes reflecting upon Nietzsche.
("He was in shock and asked for a cigarette. We lit one for him and placed it in his mouth. At some point the cars were uncoupled and he died.")
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Old 03-09-2017   #13
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Re: Are you a good person?

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic View Post
Not all values are 'arbitrary'.

We are physical creatures, grounded in the physical.
A man starving to death, a man being flayed alive, a man dying of a horrible disease knows that freedom from pain, from suffering, from hunger, is an Absolute value dictated by our physical existence. The intellect plays no part here. None at all.

A man caught between the couplers of two freight cars does not spend his last minutes reflecting unpon Nietzsche.
Of course a man facing imminent dangers would, in all likelihood, not reflect on Nietzsche, but there's no moral absolute that he should act in such and such way in face of danger. There are no "shoulds" or "oughts" in a purely naturalized world, I think.

Last edited by Mithras; 03-11-2017 at 06:38 PM..
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Old 03-09-2017   #14
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Re: Are you a good person?

Here's the thing, Mithras: a man who argues that pain is illusory, irrelevant or meaningless is, simply, a man without pain. At the moment.

Our physical responses are as absolute as an Atomic bomb.
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Old 03-09-2017   #15
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Re: Are you a good person?

Pain doesn't have to be illusory for values to be arbitrary.

Pain is not a value; what we think about pain is a value.

Values are not arbitrary if there is some universal means by which we can decide they are true.

If I think it's good that someone is in pain and they think it's bad, we can only say that one of us is right and one wrong if there is a universal means of deciding this. What Mithras is saying, I believe, is that naturalism gives us no such means.

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Old 03-09-2017   #16
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Re: Are you a good person?

No one is arguing pain is illusory.

I am simply arguing that a purely naturalized and material world entails there are no objective moral values.
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Old 03-09-2017   #17
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Re: Are you a good person?

Quote Originally Posted by Mithras View Post

I am simply arguing that a purely naturalized and material world entails there are no objective moral values.
If this is so, then there is no way to know if this is so.

"What can a thing do with a thing, when it is a thing?"
-Shaykh Ibn Al 'Arabi
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Old 03-09-2017   #18
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Re: Are you a good person?

So we have different points of view here. The intellect, as I see it, is arbitrary because it's a two-edged sword that can cut both ways. You can make an intellectual case, and a good one, for anything. Usually, the intellect is pimped out by the emotions which really determine our 'reality'. But physical responses never lie. All morality, consciously or not, is based on our grounding in the physical world.
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Old 03-09-2017   #19
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Re: Are you a good person?

Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Mithras View Post

I am simply arguing that a purely naturalized and material world entails there are no objective moral values.
If this is so, then there is no way to know if this is so.
Would you please clarify, sir?

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic View Post
But physical responses never lie. All morality, consciously or not, is based on our grounding in the physical world.
But the physical world, regardless of our pain or pleasure, is indifferent and blind, providing no justification for any morality.
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Old 03-09-2017   #20
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Re: Are you a good person?

Actually, I don't think anyone in extreme pain ever thinks "This is good." If you're not in pain, the intellect can think whatever it wants about the 'value' of another's pain.
When it comes to physical values, the intellect has no place.
Gurdjieff talks of the emotional. intellectual and physical centers (lower centers) feeding like vampires on each other's energy.
So many intellectual decisions are dictated by our emotions. And when it comes to the physical, the intellect can only obfuscate. Little more.
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