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Old 05-26-2017   #41
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Re: Idpol

Quote Originally Posted by Speaking Mute View Post
I worry about the political consequences of identity politics: just for one major example, the way the media and the Clinton campaign used race and gender against Sanders was one of the most Orwellian aspects of a thoroughly Orwellian campaign. Here you had a political dynasty whose policy positions disproportionately harmed blacks on multiple fronts - deep cuts to welfare based on welfare queen stereotypes, draconian "zero tolerance" policies in public housing that would evict whole families if a teenager committed a misdemeanor, support for three strikes laws, prison privatization, school privatization, opposition to drug decriminalization and, initially, hiking minimum wage, and so on - that seems to have induced amnesia on all these issues by mostly just repeating that Sanders was an old white guy who wasn't in touch with blacks.
I think this is really the most valid line of attack on identity politics as a destructive tactic—identity politics as played by the neoliberal elites, not as played by "regular folks."

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I also think identity politics has had a corrosive effect in academia. I fall into bitter ex-humanities student category myself, but rather then pulling up my own anecdotes I can just note incidents like the recent controversy with Hypatia. Yes, the conservative media ignores backlash and dissent from other corners of the academic left to make academia more ideologically monolithic than it really is, but at the same time too much of the academic left tries to downplay this level of political correctness as a tiny fringe when it's been both widespread and continually growing for decades now.
I think it's important to distinguish political correctness and identity politics, because I think charges of political correctness are used to disparage legitimate movements that some in this thread might say play identity politics.

I mean, we all have our own stories regarding the education system. I'm from the San Francisco Bay Area. My family background is working class, very pro-union, and very much voting for the Democratic Party. In high school, I became a pretty hardcore conservative because I was so turned off by the overt interjections of a few particular teachers' liberal politics.

They introduced me to Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky, for example, whom I was immediately hostile to. I don't agree with everything either of those men have to say, but nowadays I value their ability to challenge the dominant American ideology.

Anyway, I was still conservative as I started higher education—first a community college, and then San Francisco State University, which is just as left-leaning if not more so than UC Berkeley, and it is also the school where this happend
, aaaand was the first university in the US to create an Ethnic Studies department). At community college, I was an English tutor and student instructor, and at SFSU first studied creative writing before finally settling on political science.

I took classes on black politics in America, Chinese politics, Indian politics, literature courses on the effects of the Indian migration, early 20th Century English texts, the history of California, and so on. I was exposed to a lot of subject matter that was ripe for "political correctness" to present itself. Now, I'm not saying I never encountered it, but I can't remember a single expression of political correctness.

Was it easy to discern the politics of my professors? Absolutely, and they were overwhelmingly left-leaning. The only right-leaning instructor I remember was the guy who taught an Administration of Justice class at community college, and his politics were just as obvious as anyone else's. But my point is that pretty much all of my left-leaning teachers and instructors made an effort to engage rather than police opposing views.

Over time, I became more and more leftist/progressive as I was exposed to so many different people, perspectives, and ideas. In my experience, students were more likely to try and enforce political correctness, only to be challenged by "liberal" professors.

There is such a thing as people trying to police language and ideas to an unreasonable degree, and that is what the term "political correctness" was originally coined to describe. But nowadays, it's hard for me to take seriously as a criticism because of how it's been used for so long to shut down objections to legitimate concerns.

Hopefully some kind of coherent point was made in all of that.
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Old 05-26-2017   #42
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Re: Idpol

It seems strange to compliment someone on being good-looking.
It's a fluke of nature, not an achievement.
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Old 05-26-2017   #43
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Re: Idpol

The best way to respect a person's ethnic identity is to read some of his or her nation's beloved national poetry and peruse the classic artwork, art-house film, or traditional music. Trying to undermine his or her identity with liberalism is highly insulting and befitting of philistines.

For example, the best way to make a Japanese residing in USA feel at home is to talk about how great Bassho or Ryokan's poetry are and discuss their art like sumi-e and ukiyo-e. This requires being a bit knowledgeable and interested in the person you're conversing with, not sweeping away their differences with destructive liberalism calling it "miniscule tribal differences". Likewise, when speaking to a Chinese residing in USA, discuss their great poets like Wang Wei (who is quite difficult to translate...), Han Shan, and much much more, or talk about Journey to the West and other classics -- or their beautiful music, w/e. You don't need to have read much, sometimes Google or Gurtenberg searches can yield a lot, but at least a bit to where you can show respect or drink wine while reciting the poetry or conversing on some other similar topic. High class foreign films can provide impetus for conversaton too, such as Raise the Red Lantern or Farewell my Concubine, so get to torrenting to have something interesting to discuss with your foreign friends!

Ideally, the foreigner should also respect European poetry, like William Blake and Dante, and they should know some basics of their great artists like Da Vinci or Monet. Whatever, you get my gist. Most people know of European classical music, like the transformative Bach that moved even Cioran, but few seem to care for Indian traditional music, which can be just as meditative. Anyone who does not know of Ravi Shankar is living under a rock, and it can also provide fruitfull discussion with Indian foreigners. The classics are what define the ethos of an ethnic identity. Denigrating the classics is the best way to make enemies, trust me!

Americans have a selective ignorance about other cultures because many of them are too busy drinking beer while listening to Fox News plus Toby Keith and getting diabetes from eating one too many burgers. They don't even care for their own artists, and it's humurous when they actually buy poorly transcribed versions of Emily Dickinson's poetry which replaces hyphens with commas destroying her elliptical style.

However, imposing such philistine standards unto the world with liberalism will not go down smoothly. I expect people to at least have an idea of my culture's general artistic atmosphere when speaking to me, and humorously, Europeans of 19th and 18th century were more well-aware of it before USA exported its degenerate propagandistic media around the world in latter half of 20th century. People should at least have an idea of the Shahnameh (the best one), Khayyam, Hafiz, or whatever when becoming my friends, or at least exoress some interest, and many many Europeans did in the past, no joke.

Lately, I have been looking over Russian lacquer art based on their fairy tales, which I learned of from a Greek festival out of all things lol, so now I have something to talk about if I ever meet a Russian, beyone their great literasure or film directors. That's a lot more awareness than the average American "burger".

Last edited by ukiyo-e cat; 05-27-2017 at 01:25 AM..
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Old 05-26-2017   #44
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Re: Idpol

Quote Originally Posted by Trau View Post
I’m totally in love with this girl and her aggressive appropriation-shaming. I don’t rock dreads, but if I’d been this dude, I’d have invited her to a restaurant and been like “Please, re-educate me. Why don’t we get some scissors and you can cut the dreads off if you want.”

Then halfway through I’d have tried to start cutting her hair off too.

Seriously…"assault"? This girl is a hero for calling that douche out on his terrible style. Just Googled her and her name is Bonita Tindle. We need more human beings like her.

Quote Originally Posted by Robin Davies View Post
It seems strange to compliment someone on being good-looking.
It's a fluke of nature, not an achievement.
People tend to be more insecure about things they have no control over. This includes elements of their appearance that are likely to draw attention (whether negative or allegedly positive). Telling someone they’re beautiful or super cool or whatever isn’t usually a good idea for these reasons. So don’t compliment people on their “appearance.” Compliment them on their choices…for example, what outfit they’re wearing that day, or if you know they’ve gotten a recent haircut or have been working out or whatever.

-Miss Manners Jbon

Quote Originally Posted by ukiyo-e cat View Post
For example, the best way to make a Japanese residing in USA feel at home is to talk about how great Bassho or Ryokan's poetry are and discuss their art like sumi-e and ukiyo-e
ahaha...Japanese people in Japan don't even care about any of that, much less Japanese-Americans. Similarly, the Iranians/Persians I know are very into cocaine, working out at the gym and making money in order to get better cars...not so much poetry. They are really into being Persian...but mostly because Persians have good muscular development and are good at business.

One time I was talking to a bouncer here and I worked out that he was Ethiopian. I said,

"So you speak Amharic right?"

He scowled at me and said something like "There must be something wrong with you. Why would you know about my language?"

This is a normal human response. Well, we became friends anyway.
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Old 05-26-2017   #45
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Re: Idpol

Quote Originally Posted by Justin Isis View Post
I’m totally in love with this girl and her aggressive appropriation-shaming. I don’t rock dreads, but if I’d been this dude, I’d have invited her to a restaurant and been like “Please, re-educate me. Why don’t we get some scissors and you can cut the dreads off if you want.”

Then halfway through I’d have tried to start cutting her hair off too.

Seriously…"assault"? This girl is a hero for calling that douche out on his terrible style. Just Googled her and her name is Bonita Tindle. We need more human beings like her.
I mean, I totally agree with you just as a matter of taste, and I think conversations about cultural appropriation need to be had, but accosting some dumb clueless white guy in the hallway is probably not the best way to do it.

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ahaha...Japanese people in Japan don't even care about any of that, much less Japanese-Americans. Similarly, the Iranians/Persians I know are very into cocaine, working out at the gym and making money in order to get better cars...not so much poetry. They are really into being Persian...but mostly because Persians have good muscular development and are good at business.

One time I was talking to a bouncer here and I worked out that he was Ethiopian. I said,

"So you speak Amharic right?"

He scowled at me and said something like "There must be something wrong with you. Why would you know about my language?"

This is a normal human response. Well, we became friends anyway.
YES. As someone who is extremely interested in politics, culture, and language, I know a little about a lot. And I can tell you that, beyond a small measure of appreciation for your attempt to connect with them, most people don't care to have themselves or their cultures fetishized into a passing discussion about something their country is supposed to be famous for.

Less the case with immigrants, more the case with people born and raised here (United States; other countries may have a different experience re: assimilation, etc.). A close Persian friend of mine would rather discuss football or basketball and probably wouldn't even know what the hell I was talking about if I asked him his thoughts about Rumi or al-Ghazali.

More recent immigrants, students that I tutored, for example, were more often happy to talk at least a little about their culture. From just my Persian students, I heard about preferences for Zoroastrianism and the Shah, and even racism towards Arabs ("those ignorant desert people brought Islam to Iran and ruined it"...yikes).
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Old 05-26-2017   #46
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Re: Idpol

Quote Originally Posted by Robin Davies View Post
It seems strange to compliment someone on being good-looking.
It's a fluke of nature, not an achievement.
It is kind of a strange thing but sometimes there is health, style choices and personality making it work so well. But to not acknowledge that some people are living inside a great work of art seems deeply wrong to me. Just as it would be wrong if people never showed their appreciation for nebulae or great trees (except they aren't enhanced by personality or choices).

Talents are sometimes kind of a fluke that you cultivate. Some people really cultivate their beauty in so many ways that it can be similar at times.

Justin- why do you want to cut her hair?

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Old 05-26-2017   #47
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Re: Idpol

Justin, that's because such people are merely plebs. They are not the intellgentsia. This archetyoe of illiterate wise men is a stupid one. Even Hui Neng, who was but a humble wood chopper, had read a decent amount and was no philistine.

If a Persian, Arabic, British, Japanese, Chinese, etc. man does not know his or her classic artwork, or at the very least show keen interest, then they are not their respective ethnicity anymore. They become irrelevant rabble no better than reptiles copulating. They fall into the trap of the USA's liberal machine that seeks to create one smooth contourless and identity-less plane. No one on here is like this though.

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Old 05-27-2017   #48
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Re: Idpol

Quote Originally Posted by ukiyo-e cat View Post
Google images "Mahmoud Farshchian" and "Manzadaran Province"
Thanks, I've had a good time looking at all this.

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Old 05-27-2017   #49
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Re: Idpol

Quote Originally Posted by Justin Isis View Post
I’m totally in love with this girl and her aggressive appropriation-shaming.
She strikes me as a bully, and I'm generally not keen on them.

'I believe in what the Germans term Ehrfurcht: reverence for things one cannot understand.'
― Robert Aickman, An Essay
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Old 05-27-2017   #50
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Re: Idpol

Political correctness has become a throwaway term, but the idea that words by themselves - or in the case of braided hair, style and dress - induce trauma has been part of identity politics for some time and seems to be growing in influence. The charges of "epistemic violence" against Rebecca Tuvel were largely based on terminology choices that just about anyone outside of academia would have found innocuous. Whereas there was criticism of the backlash against Tuvel from liberal academics and outlets, proportionate to the actual number of faculty in gender studies and related departments, the number of professors and instructors who petitioned against Tuvel isn't a small fringe - which is why the editorial board of Hypatia caved and condemned Tuvel.

http://dailynous.com/2017/05/18/stat...l-controversy/

http://thephilosophicalsalon.com/if-...hought-police/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypati...sm_controversy

Anecdotally, I have younger friends and co-workers who share the mindset, and judging from what I see among their peers on social media, it has become even more pervasive than what I witnessed when I was studying philosophy in the late 90's. Like the old divide between Marxists and Anti-Marxists, I'd count identity politics as a genuine ideological rift in "the left" and not simply a Republican boogie-man.

And referring to someone as "dumb clueless white guy" just because they're white and wearing braids is itself an example of identity politics run amok. Dreads and braids are functional hairstyle - even inside hippie and punk subcultures where reggae has a large following, the hairstyles initially became popular due to a lack of access to showers when traveling/living broke rather than mindless emulation of Rastafarians. The mainstreaming of counterculture fashion in the 90's carried the hairstyles to a larger portion of white youth from there. American blacks began adopting dreads and braids in the 1970's primarily because they were simply more convenient and comfortable for black hair care, but Afrocentrism was also a major component - a movement that itself relied on cartoon stereotypes, wholesale invention, and appropriation of cultures that the vast majority of American blacks have no link to. And from what what I've both experienced myself and see in public cases like Rebecca Tuvel, discussions of cultural appropriation turn into moral outrage and name calling whenever such counterpoints are raised.
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