Did the writer of “True Detective” plagiarize Thomas Ligotti and others?

[dr. locrian]

Did the writer of “True Detective” plagiarize Thomas Ligotti and others?
by Mike Davis

Like many fans of weird fiction, I was overjoyed to discover HBO's True Detective. But as the season progressed, I became increasingly uneasy. It seemed to me that True Detective writer Nic Pizzolatto was "borrowing" words and phrasing from other authors, especially Thomas Ligotti. Recently, I expressed my concerns on one of the Lovecraft eZine video shows […]


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[bendk]

I would have to say yes. The whole way he has handled this issue stinks of deceit.

[Druidic]

It’s perplexing. Artists have ‘borrowed’ heavily from other artists since Time began, from Shakespeare to Bob Dylan. We all know the old quip, “Shakespeare improves upon everything he steals.” Usually the final ‘product’ is what justifies it. What puzzles me is why Pizzalatto used the few phrases he did when he could have easily rewritten them. If they had given an onscreen shout out to Ligotti it would be more easily understandable. Still I'd stop short of calling it actual plagiarism at this point.
OK, my last post for awhile. I've got to get ready for the guys and gals in the white coats. (Feel free to interpret that any way you please).

[dr. locrian]

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic

It’s perplexing. Artists have ‘borrowed’ heavily from other artists since Time began, from Shakespeare to Bob Dylan. We all know the old quip, “Shakespeare improves upon everything he steals.” Usually the final ‘product’ is what justifies it. What puzzles me is why Pizzalatto used the few phrases he did when he could have easily rewritten them. If they had given an onscreen shout out to Ligotti it would be more easily understandable. Still I'd stop short of calling it actual plagiarism at this point. OK, my last post for awhile. I've got to get ready for the guys and gals in the white coats. (Feel free to interpret that any way you please).

Good luck, Druidic.

I'm comfortable calling it plagiarism based on all my research (which was extensive). There's stealing (ideas, etc.--everyone does that) and there's stealing (whole phrases and sentences word-for-word and/or paraphrased).

I was appeased initially after the "backed against the wall" nice, nice things Pizzolatto said about Ligotti, but then there was utter silence on the matter. No more mentions that he had promised. No Ligotti on future lists of influences. No Ligotti mentioned on the DVD in commentary or doc.

I would've kept my mouth shut if he had given Ligotti proper respect and credit. He didn't.

And it begs the question: how much of the rest of those lines were similarly plagiarized from other sources?

[dr. locrian]

Quote Originally Posted by Hell-Ghost

Also, this thread begs the question; what is homage and what is plagiarism? Lovecraft tipped his hat many times to numerous authors in his tales, yet not to the point of plagiarism. As did Machen, James and so on. I, myself, do it, yet am careful in borrowing, not stealing, an idea from another tale. But there is a thin line betwixt borrowing and stealing. One must always be careful.

I can't believe I'm actually quoting myself but...

Quote

“Homage” suggests that Pizzolatto was honoring Ligotti or showing him respect of some sort. Lifting Ligotti’s work without permission or attribution may have or may not have been a consciously malicious decision, but in any case it was neither honorable nor reverential. A legitimate instance of homage might be Brian De Palma’s film Blow Out, which is based in large part on Michelangelo Antonio’s Blow Up, or other films of De Palma’s that allude to the works of Alfred Hitchcock, none of which employ dialogue from the source material to which they pay homage. And anyone looking objectively at the depth and breadth of Pizzolatto’s plagiarism will know that this is not a case of mere influence. If a horror writer were influenced by Thomas Ligotti, for instance, they might write a story in which life is revealed to be a nightmare, a frequent Ligotti theme. They might even be influenced by his style of writing. How they got there would be a different story. Practitioners of plagiarism in mass media—such as Jayson Blair, who submitted stories to The New York Times that were taken from other writers—are almost always revealed to be what they are. Whether these instances are gross or merely conspicuous, as with True Detective, makes no difference.

[Nemonymous]

Similarity between written works, I feel, is rarely due to plagiarism.
Generally speaking; there is satire (pastiche or lampoon) and that is not plagiarism;
Being positively inspired in one’s own work by another work, if conscious, is a tribute or, if not conscious, derives from some subconscious influence or other unexplained factors stemming from the preternatural phenomenon of literature;
and then there are coincidences;
and imaginary or borderline comparisons between two works.
Having said that, based on the evidence shown here, I would agree that this seems to be a case of plagiarism. Laurence Sterne did it liberally in 'Tristram Shandy'.
(I have not seen True Detective).

[marioneta]

True Detective was unique in combining noir with weird fiction, and through the use of material written by Ligotti, Chambers, and others. Otherwise it would have been the usual run of the mill police procedural.
In our age of social media and the internet, plagiarism has been a big problem, but its an old problem. Even Shakespeare plagiarized to some extent, but this does not excuse Pizzolato if he did not request Ligotti's permission to use his work. My enjoyment of the series was because of the Ligotti and THE CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE HUMAN RACE influence. Now that is tainted.

[Druidic]

Thanks to bill Harris for getting this posted. As Ligeia knew where there's a Will there's a Way.

What if Pizzolatto was telling the truth? That at some point he was going to talk up Ligotti’s influence and inspiration on the Rust character in TD. What if the scenes had already been filmed where Rust uses undisguised quotes (pretty strange) from Ligotti and the lawyers stepped in? In the Entertainment World those guys pretty much run the show. If they said “No, that’s a bad idea, this guy will come around asking for money,” that could have shut his plans down. They might well have preferred to just let it run and handle any problems that arose later.
I’m not saying that’s a correct explanation but it seems strange Pizzolatto would use those quotes if he wasn’t intending a tip of the hat.

[bendk]

I could sense the presence of lawyers very early on. The increasingly infamous "One Question Interview" over at Arkham Digest was part genuine flattery, but it also had the feel of a deposition to it. It's obvious that Pizzolato admires Ligotti's work, but he has been given marching orders by HBO's lawyers. He isn't the first person to sell their soul in Hollywood.

[gveranon]

Druidic and bendk, that makes some sense out of what otherwise doesn't seem to make much sense.