THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK
Go Back   THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK > Discussion & Interpretation > Other Authors > General Discussion
Home Forums Content Contagion Members Media Diversion Info Register
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes Translate
Old 04-03-2024   #1
bendk's Avatar
bendk
Grimscribe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,386
Quotes: 1
Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
Holocaust Literature and Jewish Horror




After recently watching the film The Zone of Interest, it reminded me of one of the most rewarding areas of reading that I have ever explored: Holocaust Literature.
My father taught history in the public school system. Learning about history was also his avocation. One of the TV programs we would always watch as kids was the famous BBC series The World at War narrated by Lawrence Olivier. This was about World War II. The episode on Genocide was extremely unsettling. Like many people interested in the Holocaust, I couldn't understand how a country as advanced as Germany could so quickly plummet into the depths of genocide. I read books on both sides of the conflict. I started by reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer. I read Mein Kampf. Written in 1923 when Hitler was in prison after his failed coup, the Beer Hall Putsch. I was startled that the world couldn't see what was coming. His hatred of the Jews was evident, even if The Final Solution wasn't mapped out. But Hitler's military ambitions were clear. I also read Inside the Third Reich and Spandau by Albert Speer, The Myth of the Twentieth Century by Alfred Rosenberg, The Goebbels Diaries, etc. I also watched numerous documentaries on the subject. There was a lot of myth and racial theory interwoven in Nazism. I was also reading Nietzsche at the time, and in some ways, they bastardized his philosophy into a kind of social Darwinism.

​​​​​​​



I then started reading quite a bit of what is called Holocaust Literature.
I read numerous accounts by Elie Wiesel, Primo Levi, Viktor Frankl, Charlotte Delbo, et al.

Even though I see few, if any, similarities with Ligotti's work, I try to steer things in that direction if I can, so I offer up this article I read quite a while ago.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/a...ocaust-fiction

I asked Claude AI to summarize the article.

- Ligotti's nihilistic perspective resonates in an odd way with post-Holocaust Judaism, which has had to grapple with the idea of God's covenant being shattered and a "death of God" theology emerging after the Holocaust. There is an "uncanny doubt" in Jewish faith now.
- The story "Dream of a Manikin" explores deluded human self-consciousness and autonomy. Ligotti sees humans as "manikins" traveling through life in ignorant bliss.
- The author wonders if uncanny horror in Ligotti's style could be a future direction for Holocaust literature, as a way to explore the lingering theological issues generations removed from the actual events. Scream therapy-esque scenarios force us to confront the worst possible universes.
- The psychiatrist narrator in "Dream of a Manikin" pleads for his recipient to acknowledge his existence and have an "I and thou" real relationship, nodding to Martin Buber's philosophy. This reasserts the narrator's challenged worldview.

I then asked if there were any similarities.

Some key similarities and thematic parallels between the work of horror writer Thomas Ligotti and Holocaust literature:

1) Sense of Existential Dread: Both portray a strong sense of dread, fear, and suffering in the face of a cold, uncaring world. Ligotti's work conveys existential and cosmic horror, while Holocaust literature deals with the deep trauma and terror of that historical atrocity.
2) Meaninglessness of Suffering: The portrayal of harsh realities devoid of meaning or purpose is another key commonality. In Ligotti, humans exist in a indifferent universe against uncaring forces. In Holocaust literature, victim suffering also appears incomprehensible and meaningless.
3) Absurdity: Relatedly, both deal with life's absurdity and struggle, though they approach it differently. Ligotti relies on abstract philosophical principles while Holocaust literature draws from actual lived events. Nevertheless, the confrontation with "absurd" realities links them.
4) Illusion Stripping: There is a similar stripping away of comforting illusions about the nature of reality. In Ligotti's dark fiction, safety and optimism are shown as illusory constructs. Holocaust literature also painfully erodes common faith in humanity.
5) Bleak View of Existence: Ultimately, both lead readers toward very somber perspectives on life and suffering, often termed pessimistic or gloomy. However, for some readers there could be a kind of understanding gained from facing darkness.

So while Ligotti and Holocaust literature have differences in their framing and content, there are some interesting high-level thematic links between them involving existential meaninglessness and humanity's ability to inflict/endure suffering.

I thought I would add "Jewish Horror Fiction" to allow more latitude within the thread. Also, much of Jewish horror is linked to their folklore and the Holocaust.

Have you read any Holocaust literature or Jewish horror fiction?


Last edited by bendk; 04-03-2024 at 11:31 AM..
bendk is offline   Reply With Quote
4 Thanks From:
In A Dark Light (04-03-2024), Maria B. (04-03-2024), miguel1984 (04-03-2024), Sashock Strashock (04-03-2024)
Old 04-03-2024   #2
Maria B.'s Avatar
Maria B.
Acolyte
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 72
Quotes: 0
Points: 6,110, Level: 53 Points: 6,110, Level: 53 Points: 6,110, Level: 53
Level up: 80% Level up: 80% Level up: 80%
Activity: 25% Activity: 25% Activity: 25%
Re: Holocaust Literature and Jewish Horror

The Book of Kings and Fools by Danilo Kiš (The Encyclopedia of the Dead) comes to mind. It doesn't discuss the Holocaust directly but relates the story of a fictional book, The Conspiracy, which is based on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the book partially responsible for the Holocaust, if I'm not mistaken.
Maria B. is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
bendk (04-03-2024), miguel1984 (04-04-2024)
Old 04-03-2024   #3
bendk's Avatar
bendk
Grimscribe
Threadstarter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,386
Quotes: 1
Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
Re: Holocaust Literature and Jewish Horror

Quote Originally Posted by Maria B. View Post
The Book of Kings and Fools by Danilo Kiš (The Encyclopedia of the Dead) comes to mind. It doesn't discuss the Holocaust directly but relates the story of a fictional book, The Conspiracy, which is based on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the book partially responsible for the Holocaust, if I'm not mistaken.

I can't find the book you are referring to by Danilo Kis. I am familiar with him as his book A Tomb for Boris Davidovich was selected by Philip Roth for the series Writers from the Other Europe. I owned it at one time. (I may still).

I read The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in my 20s. I bought it from a controversial publisher called The Noontide Press. I read that Protocols was a bit of Russian propaganda, but I never investigated further. The Noontide press was firebombed by the JDL (Jewish Defense League) in 1984.
bendk is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Maria B. (04-04-2024), miguel1984 (04-04-2024)
Old 04-03-2024   #4
bendk's Avatar
bendk
Grimscribe
Threadstarter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,386
Quotes: 1
Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
Re: Holocaust Literature and Jewish Horror

At the time I was reading Holocaust Literature in my 20s, there was a case of international importance going on not forty miles from my house in Cleveland, OH.

John Demjanjuk, a Ukrainian-American, resided in Cleveland, Ohio. His life became the focus of global media attention in the 1980s due to his trial and conviction in Israel. He was accused of being "Ivan the Terrible," a notoriously cruel watchman at the Treblinka extermination camp. However, in 1993, the verdict was overturned. Later, shortly before his death, he faced trial and conviction in Germany as an accessory to the 28,060 murders that occurred during his service at the Sobibor extermination camp.
Born in Soviet Ukraine, Demjanjuk survived the Holodomor as a child and was conscripted into the Red Army during World War II. Captured by the Germans in the spring of 1942, he was recruited by them and trained at the Trawniki concentration camp. He went on to serve at Sobibor and at least two other concentration camps. After the war, he emigrated to the United States, settling in Seven Hills, Ohio, where he worked in an auto factory and raised three children.


They made a documentary about him called The Devil Next Door.

I also remember going to the theater a little later and seeing The Music Box, a fine film starring Jessica Lange, Armin Mueller-Stahl, and Frederic Forrest. Loosely based on the incident. In Romania, there was the Iron Guard which E.M. Cioran was associated. Much worse was Hungary's The Arrow Cross. This is what the movie dealt with.
bendk is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Maria B. (04-04-2024), miguel1984 (04-04-2024)
Old 04-03-2024   #5
bendk's Avatar
bendk
Grimscribe
Threadstarter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,386
Quotes: 1
Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
Re: Holocaust Literature and Jewish Horror



To leave Holocaust literature, one of the most famous "Jewish" horror stories was written by a non-Jew, Gustav Meyrink. I read this Dover edition years ago.

Centipede Press and The Folio Society have also published this work.



More than a few famous authors have written their own tales of the Golem, including Elie Wiesel.
bendk is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Maria B. (04-04-2024), miguel1984 (04-04-2024)
Old 04-04-2024   #6
bendk's Avatar
bendk
Grimscribe
Threadstarter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,386
Quotes: 1
Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
Re: Holocaust Literature and Jewish Horror



Here are a few books I still have on the subject.


The word "genocide" is in the news today. It is horrible that humanity never goes very long without that word coming to the fore.

-----

Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part.

In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.

The Political Instability Task Force estimated that 43 genocides occurred between 1956 and 2016, resulting in about 50 million deaths. The UNHCR estimated that a further 50 million had been displaced by such episodes of violence up to 2008. Genocide, especially large-scale genocide, is widely considered to signify the epitome of human evil.
bendk is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Maria B. (04-04-2024), miguel1984 (04-04-2024)
Old 04-04-2024   #7
miguel1984's Avatar
miguel1984
Grimscribe
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,156
Quotes: 0
Points: 126,771, Level: 100 Points: 126,771, Level: 100 Points: 126,771, Level: 100
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Holocaust Literature and Jewish Horror

I read The Plot graphic novel by Will Eisner. It is a story about the creation of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and it is highly informative. I recommend it because I learned a lot of things about the Protocols that I did not know before. It has an introduction by Umberto Eco, who also deals with the creation of the Protocols in his novel The Prague Cemetery.

Dave Sim also published a very good graphic novel about the Holocaust, Judenhass (Jew Hatred). It is available for free here: Category:Judenhass - Wikimedia Commons.

Also, the Holocaust was used as a plot point in The Fall, the second book of The Strain trilogy by Guillermo Del Toro and Chuck Hogan, but those books are OK at best.

Your fall should be like the fall of mountains. But I was before mountains. I was in the beginning, and shall be forever. The first and the last. The world come full circle. I am not the wheel. I am the hand that turns the wheel. I am Time, the Destroyer. I was the wind and the stars before this. Before planets. Before heaven and hell. And when all is done, I will be wind again, to blow this world as dust back into endless space. To me the coming and going of Man is as nothing.
miguel1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
bendk (04-04-2024), Maria B. (04-04-2024)
Old 04-04-2024   #8
Maria B.'s Avatar
Maria B.
Acolyte
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 72
Quotes: 0
Points: 6,110, Level: 53 Points: 6,110, Level: 53 Points: 6,110, Level: 53
Level up: 80% Level up: 80% Level up: 80%
Activity: 25% Activity: 25% Activity: 25%
Re: Holocaust Literature and Jewish Horror

Quote Originally Posted by bendk View Post
I can't find the book you are referring to by Danilo Kis. I am familiar with him as his book A Tomb for Boris Davidovich was selected by Philip Roth for the series Writers from the Other Europe. I owned it at one time. (I may still).
The Encyclopedia of the Dead is a short story collection, and The Book of Kings and Fools is a story in the said collection.
The Encyclopedia of the Dead by Danilo Kiš | Goodreads
I'm sorry. I should have been clearer in my comment.

Also, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a bastardized version of The Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu by Maurice Joly. Books all the way down.
Maria B. is offline   Reply With Quote
4 Thanks From:
bendk (04-04-2024), Dusk (04-04-2024), Gnosticangel (04-04-2024), miguel1984 (04-04-2024)
Old 04-04-2024   #9
bendk's Avatar
bendk
Grimscribe
Threadstarter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,386
Quotes: 1
Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
Re: Holocaust Literature and Jewish Horror

Quote Originally Posted by Maria B. View Post
Quote Originally Posted by bendk View Post
I can't find the book you are referring to by Danilo Kis. I am familiar with him as his book A Tomb for Boris Davidovich was selected by Philip Roth for the series Writers from the Other Europe. I owned it at one time. (I may still).
The Encyclopedia of the Dead is a short story collection, and The Book of Kings and Fools is a story in the said collection.
The Encyclopedia of the Dead by Danilo Kiš | Goodreads
I'm sorry. I should have been clearer in my comment.
What you stated was fine. I read it wrong. Thank you for the clarification.

Quote Originally Posted by Maria B. View Post

Also, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a bastardized version of The Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu by Maurice Joly. Books all the way down.
Interesting. I was not aware of that. And I know Machiavelli fairly well. I was the only one in my high school with a Machiavelli t-shirt. My one cousin who is a devout Catholic about #### himself when he saw it.
bendk is offline   Reply With Quote
4 Thanks From:
Dusk (04-04-2024), Gnosticangel (04-05-2024), Maria B. (04-05-2024), miguel1984 (04-05-2024)
Old 04-05-2024   #10
bendk's Avatar
bendk
Grimscribe
Threadstarter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,386
Quotes: 1
Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100 Points: 419,837, Level: 100
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
Re: Holocaust Literature and Jewish Horror



Holocaust literature encompasses many forms, from historical accounts to memoirs, essays, poetry, and fiction. The best novel I have read is Jacob the Liar by Jurek Becker. It questions the value of truth vs hope.

I may also touch on art. There has been a great deal of art inspired by the Holocaust.
bendk is offline   Reply With Quote
3 Thanks From:
Gnosticangel (04-05-2024), Maria B. (04-05-2024), miguel1984 (04-05-2024)
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
holocaust, horror, jewish, literature


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thinking 'body horror' in literature Coelacanth Other News 3 12-09-2019 09:32 PM
Ligotti on horror literature and those who read it matt cardin Thomas Ligotti 0 09-28-2017 02:46 PM
Manliest Writers of 'Weird' or 'Horror' Literature Justin Isis General Discussion 40 01-16-2017 10:20 PM
Thomas Ligotti’s Uncanny Horror and the Future of Holocaust Fiction dr. locrian Ligotti News 6 05-13-2016 01:35 AM
Can horror in literature be nonsupernatural? yellowish haze General Discussion 43 12-21-2008 07:43 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:06 PM.



Style Based on SONGS OF A DEAD DREAMER as Published by Silver Scarab Press
Design and Artwork by Harry Morris
Emulated in Hell by Dr. Bantham
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Template-Modifications by TMS