Confused by the internet.......

I was meandering around the internet earlier this evening and came across a bizarre and (to me at least) new claim about David Tibet, proprietor of Dutro and member of Current 93. My dealings with DT have been confined to books, and my acquisition of several very fine Ghost Story Press titles, and supplying him an audio reading of a Robert Aickman tale. Apart from that, I'm slightly aware of his musical career, though it isn't quite my cup of tea, and his interest in Crowley and Stenbock, which is.

To cut to the chase: I found references to DT's alleged pro-active involvement in neo-fascist music twenty years ago. Some people seem to be claiming that he knowingly supported and worked with bands associated with the National Front and British National Party, which I find hard to believe, or that he did so for esoteric reasons without really thinking about the dangers of flirting with neo-fascism (that old chestnut linking the Nazis with the occult).

If you google the words "David Tibet Fascism" you'll see what I mean.

Anyway, I have neither the time nor the inclination to research the matter properly, and the evidence, or rather 'claims', appear to be extremely difficult to verify, so I wondered whether anyone in the TLO had a better understanding or insight into these things, and could explain whether the whole thing is a hoax, a distortion, or represents an injudicious period in DT's career?

It won't affect the high regard I hold for his books either way, it's just that in a Wikipedia entry for one of his 'Death In June' musical collaborators, fellow neo-folkist Tony Wakeford apologises unequivocally for his involvement in fascist politics, claiming it to have been the "worst decision" he had ever made.

JK

	TLO THOMAS LIGOTTI ONLINE

[MadsPLP]

He isn't. And never was. Some of his very, very former collaborators (such as Douglas P. and Boyd Rice) have used (and does still) occult fascist imagery, but they hardly are or were nazis anyway. Some of these rumours with regards to Current 93 stem from the song "Hitler as Khalki" from the album Thunder Perfect Mind. The lyrics were inspired by Savitri Devi's belief in Hitler as the tenth and final incarnation of Vishnu who comes at the end of each life cycle to destroy the world. A...colourful person in the fringes of neonazism. However, Tibet made it pretty clear that he believed Hitler was the antichrist. Unlikely to be a popular guy given Tibet's christianity.

Tony Wakeford was at one point a member of the National Front, but has long abandoned those views. I think it must have been some 25 years ago. He has apologized and taken a clear stand against it.

A lot of these lies stems from one source only, and not a very reliable one. It's utter bull####. A few of the facts from said source are correct, but then they are (deliberately or undeliberately) grossly misinterpreted.

[Sam]

I am no expert, but I do believe a number of underground groups in the UK around that time period played with fascist imagery, particularly members of the industrial and "power electronics" scenes. Whitehouse is probably the most infamous, and Ramleh was not too far behind. Musically, I find Ramleh pretty listenable, but I'm not really a fan of Whitehouse.

My take is that in most cases, it was more in the spirit of transgression and an attempt to shock, rather than an actual embrace of fascism (and serial murders, and child abuse, and all of the other detestable things they referenced in their songs). Death in June - it's hard to tell. I'm not enough of an aficionado to pretend to know the score, but a cloud has hung over that name for a long time.

Current 93 had some crossover with these scenes back then, although I believe Tibet ascended into his own musical and philosophical world years ago. I find it hard to believe that someone like Tibet was ever seriously attracted to the tenets of Nazism, but I suppose only he knows the definitive answer.

Innocent naivety may be a factor here. I remember Joy Division being accused of playing upon unpleasant Nazi imagery. At the same time the Sex Pistols and many punk bands utilised Nazi imagery, often for the wrong reasons; elsewhere Basil Fawlty and Freddie Starr were cracking Hitler jokes but in a light-hearted, faintly endearing manner. Even David Bowie was caught giving a Sieg Heil salute in Berlin when he was gliding around in a heroin daze, pretending to be a 1930s German lounge lizard. Nowadays if any celebrity did that it would end their career.

If you watch films like 'The Great Rock & Roll Swindle' and 'Jubilee' not only are you struck by the bleak youth world view but also by the sheer absence of non-white contributors. Arguably Britain was ripe for extremism in the grim economic recession of the late 70s, when rubbish built up on the streets and electricity was rationed.

It really was a murky time, in hindsight. I think Shane Meadowes does a pretty good job of analysing it in his film 'This Is England'. It was bizarre seeing skinheaded National Front supporters dance to ska music in their Dr Martens boots (what with ska being so deeply allied to reggae). I myself knew people like that, one who was a squaddie in the army, with the words 'love' and 'hate' tattooed on his fingers. Punk may well have galvanised both music and art, but it also came dangerously close to opening the floodgates for political extremism.

Thank god the goths and new romantics came along when they did.

JK

Quote Originally Posted by MadsPLP

A lot of these lies stems from one source only, and not a very reliable one. It's utter bull####. A few of the facts from said source are correct, but then they are (deliberately or undeliberately) grossly misinterpreted.

After having skimmed through the rest of that person's website, I think I err on the side of agreeing with you. DT may come across as something of an LSD casualty on his website, but that Stewart whatisname is just plain loopy. Have you seen his Wiki entry? Rarely has so much been written about such modest and dubious achievement.

I think I'll file DT's interest in right-wing politics alongside Bryan Ferry's and David Bowie's flirting with the iconic imagery of Nazism rather than any deep-felt empathy. Besides, say what you like about the politics, the uniforms and poster art were impressive.

JK

[The New Nonsense]

One needs to be careful when judging a band or group by its use of some Nazi symbolism. For example, the swastika predates Nazism by thousands of years. Only since WWII has it become corrupted and viewed as a hate sign (rotating to the right). Previously, the swastika was seen as a life-bringing, positive, solar, symbol and used by many cultures, from Native Americans to those in South East Asia. Traditionally the symbol generally rotates to the left, but not always.

Interestingly, there is a movement afoot (mostly by Neo-Pagan and Heathen groups) to reclaim the symbol. Certainly this is an enormous challenge. I hope they succeed, as the more people can remove tools of hate from neo-fascists the better.

Those that have decided to reclaim the symbol had to take the obvious first, and controversial, step of using it (in its proper context of course). Naturally, they've been targeted by those who don't understand what they're trying to achieve; the very people they're trying to help.

Last year I stayed at a grand turn-of-the-century hotel in the Black Hills of South Dakota. It was a beautiful place. The lobby was designed with a Native American motif. Among the many designs were frequent swastikas in the mosaic floor tiles, paintings, and other ornamentations. Realizing that most people wouldn't be aware of the Native American connection, I wondered if they received frequent complaints. Sure enough, as I turned a corner I saw a large framed sign describing the traditional meaning of the swastika within a Native American context. It assured the guests that these were not hate symbols, and in fact the hotel pre-dated WWII by at least 30 years.