Crawling Through the Covers

[Nemonymous]

Mirth, Myth and Doom…
My Gestalt Real-Time Reviews site is sticking by its Schengen Zone for literature, a part of the New Jungianism…

No privileged or targeted crowdfunding / kickstarting for creating new borders, new frontiers...

[dr. locrian]

Quote Originally Posted by Nemonymous

Mirth, Myth and Doom… My Gestalt Real-Time Reviews site is sticking by its Schengen Zone for literature, a part of the New Jungianism… No privileged or targeted crowdfunding / kickstarting for creating new borders, new frontiers...

"privileged or targeted crowdfunding / kickstarting?"

I'm hurt, Des. In over 20 years, we've never asked for money from the community for anything, and now we've come to the fruition of a long-term goal that fits the mission of TLO like a glove and which is entirely appropriate for the TLO community to invest in as they are willing and able. Those who can't donate will still be able to purchase Vastarien at a reasonable price when the time comes. Nothing "privileged" about it.

I urge you to read the article I wrote which details in brief the process of creating this journal to date over the better part of three years, all of which has heretofore come out of the time and pockets of the creators and editors. Also, the campaign page has a detailed budget/breakdown of all costs (the vast majority of which goes to the authors and artists who we're publishing and none of which lines the editors' pockets).

Your Gestalt Real-Time Reviews--a one person operation--have been and are invaluable and extraordinary, Des. But comparing it to the creation and implementation of a Ligottian journal of Vastarien's scope is unfair and inaccurate.

	TLO THOMAS LIGOTTI ONLINE

[Nemonymous]

Open to persuasion, Dr L. Thanks for awakening me to the fact that what I said may be seen as controversial. Interesting to see what anyone else says here.

I am a long-term lover of TLO and TL fiction, with some free-lance work in that field. Perhaps I have always misunderstood what kickstarting, crowdfunding and Patreon are all about. The Internet has brought lots of rage to people and entrenched positions, as well as other drawbacks (some serious), but I know it can have advantages, too, that I for one strive to utilise for the good of the field. Perhaps the financial methods I have just referred to as facilitated by that Internet are advantages, too, not a divisive exploitation encouraged by the Bitcoin ethos of this new world.

I may be getting too old for such a world.

	TLO THOMAS LIGOTTI ONLINE

[Ucasuni]

Des - For what it's worth, I couldn't make heads or tails of the first post. The first time I read it, I couldn't even tell it was a knock on crowdfunding. I knew what all the words meant... just not when you put them all together. I don't see the link between jungianism and the schengen zone. Or why inclusiveness (which I'm assuming is the literal equivalent to the schengen metaphor) is antithetical to crowdfunding. Or what privilege exists in this model. Or what the Penguin classics have to do with either RTR or kickstarter.

I am hardly an expert on Kickstarter, having backed only a handful of projects and solicited no contributions myself. However, in my experience it seems a remarkably clever tool that helps preempt much of the economic uncertainty facing independent creators. Naturally, it doesn't eliminate all risk; Jon and Matt almost certainly laid out cash for the pre-production of the first issue. But provided they've been realistic with their budget, they have now 12 months-worth of publications ahead of them that are guaranteed to be financially sustainable. That must be a tremendous relief to them. And to us, the backers, it ensures a year of fiction and criticism in a uniquely compelling niche, that might not otherwise be made available.

I am sincerely curious what you see/saw as the downside of such a system.

[Nemonymous]

Well, I am only just educating myself following Dr L’s post above. No idea I would cause a stir. I knew it might be debatable what I said but not to that controversial degree. I have been trying to ignore all posts about the new mag in my email inbox and those shown here publicly, because this type of funding has always been anathema to me, rightly or wrongly. And when I did look into it, I saw all these complicated formulae of what you would get for each amount of money one gives, like email thanks from luminaries of the mag, or valuable rarities etc etc. If I had been asked straight off for investment for a worthy cause, I would seriously consider it. But the methods used here frankly seemed to taint the magazine for me. Perhaps I am wrong, in hindsight.

Sorry for my gnomic first post.

[dr. locrian]

I worked in the nonprofit and social service world for many years and budgets/fundraising are a reality of existence for those entities. No matter how wonderful or important the cause, money must be raised to provide the needed services, and the fundraising works in much the same way. Internet crowdfunding works in part by offering incentives, but that's the way all fundraising essentially works.

"...like email thanks from luminaries of the mag, or valuable rarities etc etc."

a) Luminaries, Des? Email thanks from the editors of the journal is standard when a donation is made, across the board. Even the lowest tier of support includes that.

b) Any of the "valuable rarities" are products of the journal's editors or contributors -- I mean straight from them as in they are donating them to the cause themselves. How is this substantially different from me selling copies of my own book or Ligotti books from my library to raise funds for the journal? In fact, that's another example of editors, creators and contributors putting their own skin into the game. Believe me, parting with some of those Ligotti books before the campaign even began was painful. But I believe in this project and want to see it come to fruition. I hope this conversation has gone some way to relieve your mind about this fundraising effort, Des. The final product, I imagine, will speak volumes for it.

[Nemonymous]

a) Luminaries, Des? Email thanks from the editors of the journal is standard when a donation is made, across the board. Even the lowest tier of support includes that.

——————-

Yes, but it was a promised reward as I recall.

Anyway, I am reassessing my position on this whole matter, as I say.

[dr. locrian]

And thank you for the vote of confidence, Ucasuni. Matt, the other editors and I have been scrupulously careful throughout the past 2.5 years and more to estimate all the costs involved. I'm sure we'll find some additional ones crop up, but I believe we've been thorough. If we've missed any costs, they'll need to be paid by us out of pocket.

Originally, we were only going to fund costs associated with issue 1, but then we took a gamble and decided to try to fund three issues.

Here was our initial budget:

Issues 1 - 3 (Spring, Summer, and Fall 2018 Issues):

• Author and Artist Payments -- $3,635
• ISBN Purchase -- $375
• Postage -- $600
• Promotion -- $300
• Taxes and Fees -- $530

(subtract $527 raised in pre-Kickstarter fundraising)

Total: $4,913

Once we exceeded the original goal, we decided to aim towards paying our artists and authors pro-rates (e.g., 5 cents a word):

Issues 1 - 3 (Spring, Summer, and Fall 2018 Issues):

• Author and Artist Payments (5 cents a word) -- $10,888
• ISBN Purchase -- $375
• Postage -- $600
• Promotion -- $300
• Taxes and Fees -- $4,257

(subtract $527 raised in pre-Kickstarter fundraising)

Total: $15,893

As you can see, all funds are accounted for, and if we exceed that last stretch goal, funds will be saved and applied transparently towards our 2019 issues.

All this stated, there are many crowdfunding campaigns that are badly managed and promise more than the creators can (or sometimes intend to) deliver. This isn't the case here, and I think we've proven ourselves to be dedicated to the art behind this project given more than 20 years of TLO's existence.

I'm also new to such online campaigns, but we've been planning for this phase from the beginning of the project. I appreciate everyone's patience during this process. Once it's over we're going to have a beautiful and affordable journal to share the likes of which I've never seen before.

	TLO THOMAS LIGOTTI ONLINE

[Mr. Veech]

Not to pick on Des, but I personally think the crowdfunding initiative is necessary in today's world (unless there's some Ligotti fan who is independently wealthy). I'm also glad it's been successful so far.

Money is a reality. There's no shame in acknowledging that fact. I'd argue that there's a moral dimension to how one manages money. One can put money to good use or bad use. Vastarien, I believe, is an example of the former.

[ToALonelyPeace]

I understand Nenonymous' misgivings about online donations. I have the same doubt about the Patreon of youtubers and gamers myself. However, I think what's different in Vastarien case is that it's a collaboration between writers and artists known in the community, so quality assurance exists.

The other day I read a review on "Folk Horror Revival: Field Studies" here. I noticed when someone commented on the small typos and formatting issue in the book, the editor (or someone involved in the project) said:

Quote

"Hi Thank You for the review of Field Studies, some valid points noted but it should be remembered that it is a book that was done as a fun project created by non-professionals entirely unpaid in their spare time as a charity fundraiser. 100% of sales from the book are charitably donated to the Wildlife Trusts, So yes there are odd typos and some design formatting issues (that was due to conversion processes) but not really any more than a lot of small presses, some major publishing houses and newspapers and many online blogs."

While high quality work should always be the goal, I sympathize with the editor here because lack of money can put unjust constraints on art. Then it's a pity, because neither the creators nor the reader are satisfied with the product.