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Old 04-24-2017   #861
Trau
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Re: Trump

Doc, that interview reminded me of this creature's ramblings:

"I seek the revelations of all that the holy told to the unwise in the dreams of cold embers in sunlight that fade across lakes of black blood and snakes that eat the loaves of children from lamb trees in autumn."
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Old 04-24-2017   #862
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Re: Trump

So much butthurt so little time.

Lucian pigeon-holed the letter solemnly in the receptacle lettered 'Barbarians.' ~ The Hill of Dreams by Arthur Machen
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Old 04-24-2017   #863
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by T.E. Grau View Post
I can never figure out if Lefties are big meanies, who bully and talk ####, riot, and hurl insults (and rocks during protests), or if they're sensitive, limp wristed, powder puff snowflakes looking for a stress free safe space who, by their very existence, weaken any society where they are allowed sway.

Another new one, seemingly, is that Lefties are dumbing down society, while elsewhere all I hear about is how over-educated and out-of-touch these "academic elites" truly are.

The mixed signals have me befuddled.

Lefties can't be Dracula if they're also Frankenstein.

OR CAN THEY??
I can't argue with this directly. However, the important thing to acknowledge is that both sides of the political spectrum are susceptible to the kinds of antinomies (contradictions) you've described.

Are strict conservatives proponents of individual liberty, or are they proponents of sheer profit-making at the expense of the public realm? The answer is that they advocate the first, while, at the same time, unknowingly perpetuate the second. Are strict liberals proponents of socio-economic equality, or are they proponents of leveling the public realm, thereby destroying economic incentives? Again, they clearly advocate the first, while, at the same time, unknowingly perpetuate the second.

In short, I agree with Plato, Aristotle, and qcrisp. Philosophy must always take precedence over politics. If this were a predominately conservative website, I would most likely point out how the atomistic view of society perpetuated by strict conservatism (The American Right) is in many ways superficial, or how there are greater things than economic efficiency.

As for Trump, he's oscillated between being a "liberal" and a "conservative" in the past. This is appropriate because he's a charlatan with purely selfish motives.

@ Trau

"This is kind of a bull#### characterization of the Left that ignores the very destructive tendencies of the American Right, many of which involve limiting and shutting down debate over a number of issues. And from greater places of power and influence."

Let's try this:

This is kind of a bull#### characterization of the Right that ignores the very destructive tendencies of the American Left, many of which involve limiting and shutting down debate over a number of issues. And from greater places of power and influence.

Is it a duck or a rabbit? It's undoubtedly both. Although that's certainly not the "sexiest" answer, it's definitely true.

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"

Last edited by Mr. Veech; 04-24-2017 at 08:10 PM..
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Old 04-24-2017   #864
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Re: Trump

On a somewhat unrelated note, it's threads like this which make me hesitate to click the "thanks" button. It's usually used in an unambiguous manner. Here, however, I don't know if I should click "thanks" if I agree wholeheartedly with the post in question, or if I agree with only part of it.

I think to myself the following: If I click "thanks," am I creating more division? Am I unknowingly picking "friends," thereby creating "enemies" of people I actually like conversing with? Should I explain my reasoning for clicking "thanks" on one post rather than another?

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"
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Old 04-24-2017   #865
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Re: Trump

Re: the inconsistencies. I know how it can appear that way but I'm not sure these are always the same groups of righties making these varied accusations. Just like lefties, they're not nearly as unified as they seem from a distance.

But it does seem that there is a type that just changes the story to whatever their emotional needs are at the time. One minute they say they're the confident majority, the next minute they're the poor persecuted dying breed. Probably the same lot who endlessly evade real questions and make all kinds of crazy #### up.
Anyone who calls other people "cucks" yet fantasizes about his girlfriend cheating on him with a man he deems racially inferior but superior in his masculinity, must have all sorts of crazy #### going on in his head.

There's a lot of room between that and your average righty.

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Old 04-24-2017   #866
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech View Post
@ Trau

"This is kind of a bull#### characterization of the Left that ignores the very destructive tendencies of the American Right, many of which involve limiting and shutting down debate over a number of issues. And from greater places of power and influence."

Let's try this:

This is kind of a bull#### characterization of the Right that ignores the very destructive tendencies of the American Left, many of which involve limiting and shutting down debate over a number of issues. And from greater places of power and influence.

Is it a duck or a rabbit? It's undoubtedly both.
Naturally, those of us who consider ourselves to be left/progressive/whatever are susceptible bad behavior and bad reasoning as all human apes are.

But these things are not manifested in the same way across the current American political spectrum, and my comment about places of power and influence does not apply equally, either.

Limiting debate and undermining basic facts about reality is a feature of right-wing ideology at the moment. Rewriting textbooks, publicly questioning basic science, silencing government employees, corporations spending billions upon billions of dollars to mislead the public in any number of ways.

How can you equate all of that with leftist protests, for example, against scumbags who spew hate speech?

Let's not create a false balance, here.
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Old 04-24-2017   #867
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Trau View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech View Post
@ Trau

"This is kind of a bull#### characterization of the Left that ignores the very destructive tendencies of the American Right, many of which involve limiting and shutting down debate over a number of issues. And from greater places of power and influence."

Let's try this:

This is kind of a bull#### characterization of the Right that ignores the very destructive tendencies of the American Left, many of which involve limiting and shutting down debate over a number of issues. And from greater places of power and influence.

Is it a duck or a rabbit? It's undoubtedly both.
Naturally, those of us who consider ourselves to be left/progressive/whatever are susceptible bad behavior and bad reasoning as all human apes are.

But these things are not manifested in the same way across the current American political spectrum, and my comment about places of power and influence does not apply equally, either.

Limiting debate and undermining basic facts about reality is a feature of right-wing ideology at the moment. Rewriting textbooks, publicly questioning basic science, silencing government employees, corporations spending billions upon billions of dollars to mislead the public in any number of ways.

How can you equate all of that with leftist protests, for example, against scumbags who spew hate speech?

Let's not create a false balance, here.
Well, I don't think one can simply reduce the Far Left to simple protests, even if it's one modality of the Far Left. While I agree that there's a great deal of pernicious right-wing ideology, isn't it true that some liberals have rewritten textbooks as well as misled the public in the past, especially during the Cold War era? Given that both Druidic and njhorror lived through the Cold War, is it not highly unlikely that they're completely wrong? A lot of us here, including myself, were either born after or near the very end of the Cold War, so I must reasonably listen to what they have to say regarding the matter. It stands to reason that they're not simply "making things up."

You could certainly argue that right-wing ideologies are more pernicious now, historically speaking, than left-wing ideologies, but I hope you're not advocating the notion that left-wing ideologies do not possess the ability to cause just as much harm to the public as right-wing ideologies.

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"

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Old 04-24-2017   #868
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Re: Trump

It's not the Right--not even the Far Right--out there rioting, burning cars and destroying property. Did the Right Rise up and obstruct Obama at every opportunity? Hardly. Obama had a free pass. Do the students at today's universities tolerantly welcome speakers with dissenting points of view? Is political correctness anything other than the old fascist tool of public shaming? Do you really believe a man or woman should lose their livlihood over one careless remark?

I never said the Right was blameless. Quite the contary. But the Right was largely impotent in today's world.

I'm not a judge; as King David did, judge yourself.





There's absolutely no use in my pursuing this further. I'm done, friends.
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Old 04-24-2017   #869
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic View Post
It's not the Right--not even the Far Right--out there rioting, burning cars and destroying property. Did the Right Rise up and obstruct Obama at every opportunity? Hardly. Obama had a free pass. Do the students at today's universities tolerantly welcome speakers with dissenting points of view? Is political correctness anything other than the old fascist tool of public shaming?

I'm not a judge; as King David did, judge yourself.





There's absolutely no use in my pursuing this further. I'm done, friends.
I'm taking a break too. I have nothing against people here, but I don't care for divisiveness. I enjoy sticking up for the "little guy" when it's necessary, yet I can't help but feel that Carl Schmitt was unfortunately right about the nature of politics:

Carl Schmitt (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

"A political community exists, then, wherever a group of people are willing to engage in political life by distinguishing themselves from outsiders through the drawing of a friend-enemy distinction (CP 38, 43–4)."

I love you guys too much to discuss politics for a considerable length of time. It's fun and enlightening in the short-term, but too often it leads to unnecessary conflict in the long run.

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"
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Old 04-24-2017   #870
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic View Post
It's not the Right--not even the Far Right--out there rioting, burning cars and destroying property. Did the Right Rise up and obstruct Obama at every opportunity? Hardly. Obama had a free pass. Do the students at today's universities tolerantly welcome speakers with dissenting points of view? Is political correctness anything other than the old fascist tool of public shaming?

I'm not a judge; as King David did, judge yourself.


There's absolutely no use in my pursuing this further. I'm done, friends.
I believe this is a huge, exaggerated generalization about left-wingers without caring to acknowledge anything that the party you identify with has done anything similarly. So you assert that Conservatives never obstructed Barack Obama, but you can easily find evidence that this is not really true. Only one single example out of many: the passing of The Affordable Care Act in 2013. They fought tooth and nail every step of the way, they wanted to defund it so much that they ended up breaking the government for two weeks before it was passed. One can believe that they were right in their efforts if are so inclined, but that's hardly giving Obama a free pass!

Likewise, it's on record that many times far right dudes show up at protests with firearms to intimidate people they disagree with. Then you had the Cliven Bundy situation in which dudes from across the country showed up ready to fight the government if they tried to take his cows that he refuses to pay taxes for. We also have all of the violence that happen between Trump supporters and anti-Trump protestors in which both parties have ####lords who just want to incite violence such as the one in Berkeley recently. I can't condone any of it. But here are the facts you wanted. Its very easy to say that your opponent is solely the cause of all destruction

Also, it seems to me all too often that the term "political correctness" is used to deflect criticism to one's own opinions. Am I incorrect in thinking so?

By the way, I'm honestly not trying to give you anyone who is a conservative a hard time, I'm trying to have a rational debate and I want your opinions on what I have to say.
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