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Old 04-23-2017   #311
Speaking Mute
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Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by Frater_Tsalal View Post
I think one of my issues with this whole thing (and I know I've ranted about this at length in the past but what the hell, I love a good rant) was that the people who wanted the bust changed had no idea how to win graciously (and of course, knowing how to win in a gracious manner is just as important as knowing how to lose in a gracious manner). Or how some of the followers of the people who wanted the bust changed were comparing them to famous civil rights pioneers (utter nonsense of course, but I guess to some of today's young writers putting your name on a Change.org petition or placing a "Black Lives Matter" over the mouth of the Lovecraft bust and posting the resulting picture on Facebook is the same as putting your life on the line). Or how some of the people who wanted the bust changed were painting anyone who wanted the bust to remain as it was as out-of-touch backwards conservative straight white guys (when, in fact, some of the most prominent defenders of keeping the bust as it were included S.T. Joshi, Caitlin R. Kiernan, W.H. Pugmire, and so forth: hardly right-wing straight white males). But I'll stop here for now as it's something I can argue about for hours.
The hyperbole and culture war rhetoric from both sides is mostly an unfortunate symptom of the greater political context. But that said, genre fiction is the sort of tiny pond where everyone thinks the big fish are much bigger than they really are. However prestigious the WFA might be among fantasy authors and publishers, outside the genre ghetto the entire controversy reduces to a bunch of obscure people arguing about a bust at an even more obscure fantasy convention. As much as I find Older, Mieville, and the editors at Strange Horizons both obnoxiously self-righteous and self-important, it's hard for me to sympathize with the new design being detrimental to the image of a public domain author whose print sales outpace contemporary blockbuster authors like Suzanne Collins or Cormac McCarthy.
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Old 04-23-2017   #312
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Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
"conservative straight white guys"

Who are by definition evil?
Well, in their eyes!

"The Outsider must find a direction and commit himself to it, not lie moping about the meaninglessness of the world."
-Colin Wilson, Religion and the Rebel
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Old 04-23-2017   #313
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Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

In other words, there's a great deal of petty politics at work - as always.

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"
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Old 04-23-2017   #314
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Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by Frater_Tsalal View Post
some of the most prominent defenders of keeping the bust as it were included S.T. Joshi, Caitlin R. Kiernan, W.H. Pugmire, and so forth: hardly right-wing straight white males).
Joyce Carol Oates was another defender.

I'm conflicted about it but what Samatar and Jemisin were saying ultimately sways me towards their take. I don't know what it's like to face regular discrimination and the twist in the stomach they talked about. How can one say for sure if someone's overreacting? It seemed most black people (who must be the most uncomfortable with Lovecraft) who talked about it wanted the change. How could I say how they should reasonably feel? I don't trust the defenders of the statue to know that either.
For Joshi, Pugmire and others this discomfort possibly dissolved a long time ago (if it was ever there) because they're around Lovecraft all the time.
Nick Mamatas and Silvia Moreno Garcia do loads of Lovecraft stuff but they supported the change while disagreeing with some of the complaints about Lovecraft.

What China Mieville said about punishing the award statue was silly but I think he's generally great speaking about anything really.

The nomination pins were retired last week.

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Old 04-23-2017   #315
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Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Anyone disappointed that the Lovecraft wasn't replaced with a bust of Joshi?
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Old 04-24-2017   #316
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Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

@Frater_Tsalal

What about Price and the good chunk of his followers tho? Extremely conservative, and extremely outspoken about it (as well as about their dislike for the "lefties").

Quote Originally Posted by Evans View Post
Anyone disappointed that the Lovecraft wasn't replaced with a bust of Joshi?
Joshi is.
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Old 04-24-2017   #317
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Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by Hidden X View Post
@Frater_Tsalal
Joshi is.
You obviously don't know S. T., to post such an absurd reply. He is utterly devoted to his work, and cares nothing for superfluous "awards."

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Old 04-24-2017   #318
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Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by hopfrog View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Hidden X View Post
@Frater_Tsalal
Joshi is.
You obviously don't know S. T., to post such an absurd reply. He is utterly devoted to his work, and cares nothing for superfluous "awards."
To be fair, I read Hidden X's post as a deliberate joke this time, and not as a crass remark. I think most people agree S.T. Joshi is devoted to his craft.

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"
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Old 04-24-2017   #319
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Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech View Post
To be fair, I read Hidden X's post as a deliberate joke this time, and not as a crass remark. I think most people agree S.T. Joshi is devoted to his craft.
I agree. Although, frankly, I don't see that being devoted to one's craft is mutually exclusive of valuing awards. And certainly nothing I've ever seen (and particularly not Joshi's response in the wake of the statue's removal) would suggest to me that S. T. Joshi previously considered the award "superfluous"... nor considered the "award" superfluous. Indeed, his demonstration against the award would only be meaningful if he valued the award in the first place!

hopfrog is understandably protective of all things Lovecraft, but it seems he overswung on this one. "no one cares about your stupid little award"... and yet the amount of digital ink spilled suggests otherwise.
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Old 04-24-2017   #320
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Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by Ucasuni View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech View Post
To be fair, I read Hidden X's post as a deliberate joke this time, and not as a crass remark. I think most people agree S.T. Joshi is devoted to his craft.
I agree. Although, frankly, I don't see that being devoted to one's craft is mutually exclusive of valuing awards. And certainly nothing I've ever seen (and particularly not Joshi's response in the wake of the statue's removal) would suggest to me that S. T. Joshi previously considered the award "superfluous"... nor considered the "award" superfluous. Indeed, his demonstration against the award would only be meaningful if he valued the award in the first place!

hopfrog is understandably protective of all things Lovecraft, but it seems he overswung on this one. "no one cares about your stupid little award"... and yet the amount of digital ink spilled suggests otherwise.
Of course, everyone agrees that Joshi is aware of the award's symbolic value. Nevertheless, "award" has two completely different connotations here, so there's no genuine disagreement.

You and I agree that Hidden X's remark was meant to be a joke. Hopfrog didn't read it as a joke; he or she read it as an attack against Joshi's character. If it was indeed an attack against his character, then Hopfrog is defending Joshi against the charge of obsessing over a valueless object in the name of personal vanity. In other words, he's responding to something not directly related to the idea that Joshi cares for the symbolic value of the award.

But the man (or woman) shall speak for himself.

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"
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