THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK
Go Back   THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK > Discussion & Interpretation > Ligotti Influences > H. P. Lovecraft
Home Forums Content Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Contagion Members Media Diversion Info Register
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes Translate
Old 09-06-2014   #71
Frater_Tsalal's Avatar
Frater_Tsalal
Chymist
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 389
Quotes: 0
Points: 11,582, Level: 74 Points: 11,582, Level: 74 Points: 11,582, Level: 74
Level up: 44% Level up: 44% Level up: 44%
Activity: 43% Activity: 43% Activity: 43%
Send a message via AIM to Frater_Tsalal
Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

I would also like to say that I don't think Huysmans would immediately dismiss Lovecraft: it's already been mentioned on here that he was an early champion of Poe and other decadent writers/poets/artists, and he was certainly interested in all things grotesque (in one of his letters from 1885, for example, he heaps praises on Maldoror, which he refers to as a "hymn of homosexuality"... the shark-screwing scene and the disembowelment through the vagina scene in particular he enjoyed, the latter episode he deemed "appetizing"). Even the Christian artwork he admired tended to be somewhat dark and grotesque, such as the Grunewald crucifixion that he writes at length about in La-Bas. He might not have cared for Lovecraft's philosophy or worldview (though both were pessimists), but I think he would certainly appreciate the horrific effect they generate.
Frater_Tsalal is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
mark_samuels (09-06-2014)
Old 09-06-2014   #72
mark_samuels's Avatar
mark_samuels
Grimscribe
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,401
Quotes: 0
Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by Alarm Agent View Post
It's easy : if you are a white man (living or dead) who made racial slurs you don't belong to the accepted progressive establishment, no matter what other qualities or opinions you may have. If you are a black woman you automatically belong to the progressive establishment, no matter what writerly qualities you mave have (or if any at all.)
Yes and no. H.G. Wells is still able to get away with having espoused bloody murder. He's long had a free-pass with the Left despite his championing of a eugenics policy even the state of Oregon would think twice over.

Mark S.

"You have no idea how much nastier I'd be if I were not a Catholic. Without supernatural aid I would hardly be a human being." Evelyn Waugh
mark_samuels is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Alarm Agent (09-08-2014), Druidic (09-06-2014)
Old 09-06-2014   #73
Justin Isis's Avatar
Justin Isis
Chymist
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 438
Quotes: 0
Points: 15,863, Level: 86 Points: 15,863, Level: 86 Points: 15,863, Level: 86
Level up: 90% Level up: 90% Level up: 90%
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Wasn't there a Wells book where he wipes out all Muslims worldwide in order to establish Utopia? If I remember right it included airplane (then super science fiction tech) raids on Mecca.

It's interesting to note what the present does and doesn't let the past get away with. Most people wouldn't think of rich Harvard graduates who got away with irresponsible murder because their parents kept bailing them out as their idea of counter cultural heroes, but William S Burroughs. M.P. Shiel probably isn't well-known enough for the child molester revelations to generate much interest. I remember Arthur Koestler - at present pretty obscure but once well-known - got dug back up for a while because it came out that he was a serial rapist. 

It's nothing new, Catullus and other classical writers were banned through much of the 19th century, and Shakespeare got Bowdlerized. I wonder if there's a statute of limitations...haven't heard many recent attacks on Ovid despite him recommending rape...

Current society isn't much different from the Victorians...ask anyone who has failed a job interview because of the wrong pictures of them coming up on Google...in some respects it is worse than the 19th century.
Justin Isis is offline   Reply With Quote
5 Thanks From:
Alarm Agent (09-08-2014), Druidic (09-06-2014), mark_samuels (09-06-2014), Murony_Pyre (09-07-2014), qcrisp (09-07-2014)
Old 09-06-2014   #74
mark_samuels's Avatar
mark_samuels
Grimscribe
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,401
Quotes: 0
Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by Justin Isis View Post
Wasn't there a Wells book where he wipes out all Muslims worldwide in order to establish Utopia? If I remember right it included airplane (then super science fiction tech) raids on Mecca.
Probably. I have had a downer on Wells since forever. I'm sure he once grumbled that the Allies had held off from bombing the Vatican City during WW2.

It reminds me somewhat of HPL's asides about "greasy Italian Popes".

After blasting my beloved Huysmans I was waiting for another Catholic blacklist from Brendan in the hope I could drag all of Zen Buddhism down by posting this link.

Zen_at_War Zen_at_War

Hmmph! I don't care. I'll post it anyway...

Next time it'll be a link to Baron Ungern Von Sternberg, the crazed Buddhist Monarchist.

So it goes.

Mark S.

"You have no idea how much nastier I'd be if I were not a Catholic. Without supernatural aid I would hardly be a human being." Evelyn Waugh
mark_samuels is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
Druidic (09-06-2014)
Old 09-06-2014   #75
Druidic's Avatar
Druidic
Grimscribe
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,363
Quotes: 0
Points: 65,287, Level: 100 Points: 65,287, Level: 100 Points: 65,287, Level: 100
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 100% Activity: 100% Activity: 100%
Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Zen at War is great.

It reminds me of a story by Gurdjieff. A bandit hid in the hills for hours, everyday for years, motionless, ignoring his hunger for food and water, exposed to the merciless heat, ignoring that too, only concentrating and waiting for his next victim to rob. After some years he crystalized a soul, a true Self. He had followed the path of the fakir, not even knowing it.
He was still a killer and a bandit.

Enlightenment is never what its cracked up to be.
Druidic is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
ramonoski (09-07-2014)
Old 09-06-2014   #76
brendanconnell's Avatar
brendanconnell
Mystic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 235
Quotes: 0
Points: 7,957, Level: 62 Points: 7,957, Level: 62 Points: 7,957, Level: 62
Level up: 36% Level up: 36% Level up: 36%
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

1. "If you are a black woman you automatically belong to the progressive establishment, no matter what writerly qualities you mave have (or if any at all.)" You must be a fun guy to hang out with. Ah yes, those hordes of black women coming to steal the laurels from big-jawed Lovecraft. 2. Mark: My one merit is that I probably have read more subversive Catholic writers than most. I did, after all, dedicate my first novel to Baron Corvo. But I did also mention Bloy, I would also haul out Ernest Hello for this argument of Catholic writers I like but don't approve of. Of course if people here were worshipers of Bloy, Huysmans, Hello or Corvo, I would let it all slide since those fellows were good writers. 3) I think that Huysmans would not have liked Lovecraft. Yes, he did like a few people (not decadents, since there was no such thing until Huysmans himself came along), but he would have considered Lovecraft a weak stylist. He also would have most certainly considered Lovecraft to be working basely for the Evil One..... 4) I would of course prefer a debate on the merits or not of Ernest Hello, rather than Lovecraft, but since the latter is the figure of such great adulation, we are stuck where we are.
brendanconnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014   #77
brendanconnell's Avatar
brendanconnell
Mystic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 235
Quotes: 0
Points: 7,957, Level: 62 Points: 7,957, Level: 62 Points: 7,957, Level: 62
Level up: 36% Level up: 36% Level up: 36%
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

I also would of course be happy to debate the merits of some Buddhist or Taoist writer of my choosing against Lovecraft.
brendanconnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014   #78
mark_samuels's Avatar
mark_samuels
Grimscribe
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,401
Quotes: 0
Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by brendanconnell View Post
I also would of course be happy to debate the merits of some Buddhist or Taoist writer of my choosing against Lovecraft.
Stylistic or moral merits? Or a conflation of the two, as with Lovecraft?

You can start with Mishima.

Mark S.

"You have no idea how much nastier I'd be if I were not a Catholic. Without supernatural aid I would hardly be a human being." Evelyn Waugh
mark_samuels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014   #79
brendanconnell's Avatar
brendanconnell
Mystic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 235
Quotes: 0
Points: 7,957, Level: 62 Points: 7,957, Level: 62 Points: 7,957, Level: 62
Level up: 36% Level up: 36% Level up: 36%
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

I think stylistic merits would be the most interesting. But "of my choosing". I have not read a great deal of Mashima, but have not liked what I have read. I think however that Justin has read a good bit and might be willing to take up the gauntlet.
brendanconnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014   #80
Justin Isis's Avatar
Justin Isis
Chymist
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 438
Quotes: 0
Points: 15,863, Level: 86 Points: 15,863, Level: 86 Points: 15,863, Level: 86
Level up: 90% Level up: 90% Level up: 90%
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
Re: Octavia E. Butler against Lovecraft (World Fantasy Award).

Quote Originally Posted by brendanconnell View Post
I would of course prefer a debate on the merits or not of Ernest Hello, rather than Lovecraft, but since the latter is the figure of such great adulation, we are stuck where we are.
Can u post some prose excerpts from Hello that are good?
Justin Isis is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
Druidic (09-07-2014)
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
award, butler, fantasy, lovecraft, octavia, world

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Grimscribe won the Italian SF/Fantasy award Andrea Bonazzi Other News 2 05-23-2016 02:40 AM
ST Joshi to boycott World Fantasy Award Malone Other News 1 11-13-2015 07:04 AM
Born to Fear: Interviews with Thomas Ligotti nominated for a World Fantasy Award! Dr. Locrian Ligotti News 8 07-12-2015 12:35 PM
Octavia Butler nightflight General Discussion 2 01-26-2012 02:45 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:18 AM.



Style Based on SONGS OF A DEAD DREAMER as Published by Silver Scarab Press
Design and Artwork by Harry Morris
Emulated in Hell by Dr. Bantham
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Template-Modifications by TMS