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Old 05-17-2017   #21
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Re: The Handmaid's Tale (2017 TV Series)

The idea that America, Britain, France, Switzerland or Germany could backslide into Patriarchy is simply unrealistic (yes, I'm tempted to say nuts).

Wasn't feminism about choice for women? I wish men would shut up on abortion and some women learn tolerance. The laws are not going to be overturned even by a Conservative Court. There would be too much chaos and we know the conservatives are gutless lol.

Many women are against abortion--I'm pro-death, myself--and it takes a hell of a lot of arrogance to dismiss these women. It's about choice, guys. Not the Liberal Progressive agenda.

As a Pro-Deather, I believe in freedom, something apparently a lot of you good folk don't.

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Old 05-17-2017   #22
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Re: The Handmaid's Tale (2017 TV Series)

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic View Post
The idea that America, Britain, France, Switzerland or Germany could backslide into Patriarchy is simply unrealistic (yes, I'm tempted to say nuts).
Eh, I'd say on a long enough timeline (a hundred years? thousands of years?) just about anything is on the cards. A certain level of dark age regression wouldn't surprise me. A complete dark age regression in the next few hundred years wouldn't surprise me.

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic View Post
Many women are against abortion--I'm pro-death, myself--and it takes a hell of a lot of arrogance to dismiss these women. It's about choice, guys. Not the Liberal Progressive agenda.
If women are against abortions then they shouldn't have them. It's not really about choice if their choice is to remove the choice of others.

'I believe in what the Germans term Ehrfurcht: reverence for things one cannot understand.'
― Robert Aickman, An Essay
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Old 05-17-2017   #23
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Re: The Handmaid's Tale (2017 TV Series)

What it comes down to, James, is the silliness of labels like "pro-life" or "pro-choice." Both sides can work themselves into an Evangelical fever. That's not what it's all about. Women who want abortions should have them; those who don't shouldn't be looked down upon as mentally deficient. Simple as that...until human nature kicks in.

"Pro-Death" is yet another useless label but it explains my position honestly.
Many who use the pro-choice label aren't in the least.
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Old 05-17-2017   #24
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Re: The Handmaid's Tale (2017 TV Series)

I think that not having an abortion and reproducing is one of the most socially acceptable things a woman can do. I don't think the stigma against childbirth is even remotely commensurate to the stigma against abortion, even in today's society.

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Old 05-17-2017   #25
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Re: The Handmaid's Tale (2017 TV Series)

Nevermind, I guess my joke wasn't funny.

I do think there may be advantages to putting eunuchs into positions of power, like many Chinese dynasties did.

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Old 05-18-2017   #26
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Re: The Handmaid's Tale (2017 TV Series)

Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Staaz View Post
True for countries where there is no strong tradition of self-government and republican institutions. But I can't think of one country in the West that has backslid into a patriarchal theocracy. And I believe many are, indeed, talking about the show and book as timely in America's current political context.
It's been over fifteen years since I read the book (haven't seen the series) but isn't it implied that Gilead arose against a sort of Post-Apocalyptic background? If so the depiction of Gileadean society suggests aspects of American Survivalism*. The sort of Fundamentalist vision described in the novel is very unlikely for a Western nation now, but such a society, one which treats its members as quasi-military resources and doesn't allow digression from the norm, is more plausible in the sort of enviroment where 'might is right'.

*The panic about falling fertility rates is another US Far Right trope I think (not that all Survivalists are Far Right). So really the 'timeliness' of the book is due to the fact that Far Right ideologues who have a 'fertility first' view of women have gained some mention in the mainstream media recently.

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Old 05-18-2017   #27
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Re: The Handmaid's Tale (2017 TV Series)

Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Cheev View Post
I recognize a problem here. Adherents of patently ridiculous beliefs and ideologies expect to be taken seriously. They feel that any idea that flits through their empty heads is worthy of debate. They are wrong. That a woman should have reproductive freedom is a given. End of story. That she should have to adjust her behavior to fit your delusional beliefs is absurd. It is none of your business.
If they possessed some common sense and if they weren't quite a bit detached from reality, they wouldn't subscribe to their beliefs in this day and age in the first place.

Trying to reason with them as pointless an activity as you can find.
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Old 05-18-2017   #28
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Re: The Handmaid's Tale (2017 TV Series)

How much respect is due to individuals who actively seek to abridge another person's rights?--bendk

No argument from me on that, Ben. But both sides have to learn tolerance. There are women who wouldn't consider an abortion for themselves but aren't fanatics or even Fundamentalists. They aren't out there marching and displaying grisly photos.

I've always been obsessed with freedom but please don't mistake me for a whacked-out Libertarian.

Women should learn to respect each others choices. We all should. But,yes, the religious element can be a real roadblock and I have no solution for that.
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Old 05-18-2017   #29
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Re: The Handmaid's Tale (2017 TV Series)

Quote Originally Posted by bendk View Post
How much respect is due to individuals who actively seek to abridge another person's rights?
I'm not taking a stance on the Pro-Life/Pro-Choice debate but that remark is a bit question begging since whether such things count as someone's rights is precisely what the other side disputes.
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Old 05-19-2017   #30
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Re: The Handmaid's Tale (2017 TV Series)

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic View Post
But,yes, the religious element can be a real roadblock and I have no solution for that.
I don't think that there is any solution for that.
Today, we can't really argue that it all boils down to level of education and access to information. So what can we do? You obviously cannot outlaw organized religion in general, and outlawing just one specific set of religions (christianity) - even if that was in any way feasible in the west - would open a whole other can of beans.
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