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11-21-2012 | #21 | |||||||||||
Chymist
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Re: Against Anti-Humanism and the Conspiracy?
Does the possibility that we can never eradicate cancer, and that other species on other planets also suffer from cancer, lead to problems with being anti-cancer, as in trying to fight the disease as best we can? I say they shouldn't have to fight it AT ALL! This kid just wants to press the red button. | |||||||||||
"Crito, we owe a cock to Asclepius; please remember to pay the debt." - Socrates.
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2 Thanks From: | Clown Puppet (11-21-2012), Gray House (11-21-2012) |
11-21-2012 | #22 | |||||||||||
Chymist
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Re: Against Anti-Humanism and the Conspiracy?
I think Sundog's cancer-fighting comparison is a good one. We may not be able to eliminate suffering, but it does not follow that therefore fewer suffering beings is not preferable to many suffering beings. | |||||||||||
Thanks From: | sundog (11-21-2012) |
11-21-2012 | #23 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 557
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Re: Against Anti-Humanism and the Conspiracy?
So, "Some people don't like life and may be successful in the short term at preventing some of their genes from reproducing by deciding to be anti-natalist/anti-life" seems like an accurate statement, not sure what else can be said, though. Just surprised that these discussions tend to focus more on morals/ideology than they do on practical solutions like physically altering consciousness, destroying the planet, etc. There may be other ways of removing suffering from consciousness that we haven't thought of yet - would be interested to hear what people can come up with. | |||||||||||
5 Thanks From: | Clown Puppet (11-23-2012), DannySkyshifter (05-04-2015), DoktorH (09-06-2014), Howarth (07-21-2014), Murony_Pyre (07-23-2013) |
09-03-2014 | #24 | |||||||||||
Acolyte
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 75
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Re: Against Anti-Humanism and the Conspiracy?
Apologies for using technical meditation terms here: One response to suffering would be a technology that makes Enlightenment (assuming it exists and is attainable) cheap, easy and available to everyone. I've heard some Zen guys speculating on what if we could get large numbers of people to stream entry, or even begin churning out arhats (those who have seen through the illusion of self completely). In my limited experience, the maps of awakening are REAL and ritual magick is an effective way to "jump" past yr level and make rapid progress. Perhaps some Crowleyan figure will invent a psychedelic gas that would be sprayed over large areas, inducing the experiences recounted in the Therevadan literature: Arising and Passing, Dark Night, Equanimity, Stream Entry. It would be immensely destabilizing but if we could get over the hump, we'd live in a far different world. I don't believe truly Realized people are totally incapable of inflicting harm (many alcoholic lamas come to mind), but in my experience with this stuff, just getting to the Equanimity stage has extinguished most of my chronic hatred of other human beings (aggression is still there, thankfully, otherwise I couldn't play metal)
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09-04-2014 | #25 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
Join Date: Feb 2014
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Re: Against Anti-Humanism and the Conspiracy?
It occurs to me reading this that a lot of people are already aware--perhaps not in the refined and scholarly way Thomas Ligotti and many of his readers/fans/whatevers are--of what is in TCATHR. It doesn't follow from this at all that everyone would commit suicide or stop making art or stop reproducing simply because they are already aware of the these things.
As a person who likes to consider himself well read and a fan of Ligotti, I think we should be tolerant of people who don't off themselves just because of the harsh realities of our corporeal existence. And by that I mean who enjoy simple things and continue to live and have loved ones they have fun interacting with, whatever, not Nietzschean nut cases and that appalling breed of vainglorious people. I think all of us have ambition, or we wouldn't be on this site engaging in these huge and daunting ideas? And we probably would't write anything, either. Or do the myriad of things we still do despite our knowledge. An elitism of pessimism is just as a bad as an elitism of optimism, is what I'm driving at. | |||||||||||
“The real reason why so few men believe in God is that they have ceased to believe that even a God can love them.”
― Thomas Merton, No Man Is an Island |
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09-04-2014 | #26 | |||||||||||
Mystic
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 195
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Re: Against Anti-Humanism and the Conspiracy?
When you read TCATHR its more likely you will become... horror writer, than actually do something that book suggest - especially when its... self-destruction, in a way, maybe if its type of book that suggest destruction of someone else - individual or a group, then it will probably function.
Its just usual way that humans work, like Cioran said - gynecologist fall in love with their patients, gravediggers have children... and skeptics write. It may not be ambition, search for knowledge and ideas that are really holding us in a place but just lack of control. Still, "ambition, search for knowledge and ideas" are pretty good excuse - maybe the only one ? Humanism will always remain, at least as a...advice, we need it as a excuse - it lack actual substance, both subject and object are not present, religion without followers. I put my trust in conscience, because it avoids humanity and works directly from a "divine" and of course : when its to late. Transcendence beyond human is necessary, even in defeat. | |||||||||||
I knew that someday I was gonna die / And I knew before I died Two things would happen to me / That number one I would regret my entire life / And number two I would want to live my life over again.
Hubert Selby Jr. |
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Thanks From: | teguififthzeal (09-05-2014) |
09-05-2014 | #27 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 950
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Re: Against Anti-Humanism and the Conspiracy?
Ambition is no excuse for anything. Though I know we are hardwired to be ambitious, I can't stand ambitious people as a rule, who bandy about and invariably choose the worst things to be ambitious about.
Then at other times I wonder--is there really any difference between a person arguing about John Cage's relevance and a person arguing with another about the latest Red Sox game? What you say is why partially why I am not a secular humanist. I believe in God. Secular humanism is a generational roll of the "collective conscience" which barely ever gets out of our hands. | |||||||||||
“The real reason why so few men believe in God is that they have ceased to believe that even a God can love them.”
― Thomas Merton, No Man Is an Island |
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Thanks From: | yellowish haze (09-05-2014) |
09-06-2014 | #28 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 726
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Re: Against Anti-Humanism and the Conspiracy?
if it said some specific group was to blame for life being malignantly useless, it would just be hate literature, and lengthy discussions about it would happen in a very different corner of the internet. | |||||||||||
09-08-2014 | #29 | |||||||||||
Acolyte
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 75
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Re: Rationalism, Pragmatism, and Mysticism
Activity in brain networks related to features of depression -- ScienceDaily
There may be some neuroscience evidence to back up the Eastern criticism: It was also found that psilocybin induced mystical experiences shut down blood flow to the default mode network while ramping it up in other areas. They theorize that this may be why the drug can help relieve depression. I have a hunch that meditation can do something similar, although I know of no studies that have found a correlation between DMN activity and the results of meditation. I think with all this "Mc-Mindfulness" stuff going around, with corporate executives learning basic concentration skills to help relieve the stress of being corporate executives (basically, nearly everything that Slavoj Zizek criticizes about modern Buddhism) its easily forgotten that the path laid out in the Pali canon involves periods of intense "Knowledges of Suffering" (the dukkha nanas) where one can experience vivid visions of bodily decay and various kinds of death. Indeed, the process unfolds so predictably that it resembles some kind of program, culminating in the experience and knowledge that the mystics are selling. My most intense moment was an experience of nothingness, but it was a deep and rich nothingness, not a blank as one would suppose nothingness to be. And I was told I had barely made it a few blocks into the Beyond. | |||||||||||
2 Thanks From: | teguififthzeal (09-08-2014), With Strength I Burn (09-24-2014) |
09-09-2014 | #30 | |||||||||||
Mystic
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 106
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Re: Against Anti-Humanism and the Conspiracy?
An interesting parallel to this discussion is the idea of "neurological determinism" and the critique of free will in the books Blindsight and Echopraxia by Peter Watts.
Perhaps suffering is due to, at least partially, the conception of free will and its pervasiveness. | |||||||||||
Thanks From: | Alarm Agent (09-10-2014) |
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