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Old 11-03-2014   #11
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Re: Antinatalists Corner

marioneta, I'm not trying to 'sell' anything to anyone. The books are out there, the arguments are out there. People can pick up, inspect and approve or disapprove as they see fit. It has nothing to do with me.

Dr Locrian, that's very impressive. I guess you know about Jim Crawford's Confessions of an Antinatalist, similar story as yourself, father of two daughters and so on. Worth a read for a more human and personal experience of AN.
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Old 11-03-2014   #12
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Re: Antinatalists Corner

I don't understand why choosing not to have kids (even though you could) necessarily makes you anti-. This seems to presuppose belief in free will, no? I also find myself wondering if the moral wrongness of creating sentient life in AN only concerns human beings or if it applies to animals and other nonhumans as well? No hidden agendas to my questions, just want to find out how interested I am in this as philosophy.
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Old 11-03-2014   #13
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Re: Antinatalists Corner

This is probably my last word on an antinatalist thread.

Deciding not to have children is a selfish act as well. I know, I’m speaking from experience. But I never pretended there was anything noble in my decision; there wasn’t.

Antinatalism is full of contradictions; the majority of people will never buy it period. Yet if the ultimate goal of antinatalism is to stamp out human consciousness, then these folk should be pushing for bigger and bigger families. Overpopulation could conceivably deliver extinction what with disease, famine and God knows what else.

And don’t tell me that antinatalists would feel too much the suffering…If antinatalists could they would order the involuntary sterilization of every living thing on earth and not give a damn about the suffering lol.
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Old 11-03-2014   #14
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Re: Antinatalists Corner

That's rather a sweeping statement, Druidic. Certainly there are antinatalists out there who feel that way, but I sincerely doubt that the majority of antinatalists would "order the involuntary sterilization of every living thing on earth and not give a damn about the suffering." You're talking about a fringe group in an already small population.

I can't speak for them, as I'm (obviously) not an antinatalist. But I can state that Thomas Ligotti, the only antinatalist I know well, is one of the most humane people I've ever met and does indeed give a damn about the suffering that human beings endure (both physically and psychically). But you know that already.

"...the uncanny is to me the defining trait of this strange and terrible world and our strange and terrible minds." --Thomas Ligotti
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Old 11-03-2014   #15
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Re: Antinatalists Corner

Quote Originally Posted by MTC View Post
I don't understand why choosing not to have kids (even though you could) necessarily makes you anti-. This seems to presuppose belief in free will, no? I also find myself wondering if the moral wrongness of creating sentient life in AN only concerns human beings or if it applies to animals and other nonhumans as well? No hidden agendas to my questions, just want to find out how interested I am in this as philosophy.
I'm confused. Who wrote that choosing to not have kids necessarily makes you an AN?

Antinatalists certainly (and basically) believe that procreation should not continue, but that doesn't conversely mean that everyone who decides not to have kids is an antinatalist.

"...the uncanny is to me the defining trait of this strange and terrible world and our strange and terrible minds." --Thomas Ligotti
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Old 11-03-2014   #16
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Re: Antinatalists Corner

I would guess that most antinatalists would advocate for the human race itself voluntarily ceasing procreation but not necessarily other less self-aware animals.

That stated, there's no doubt that the sterilization of unwanted domesticated animals is a mercy.

"...the uncanny is to me the defining trait of this strange and terrible world and our strange and terrible minds." --Thomas Ligotti
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Old 11-03-2014   #17
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Re: Antinatalists Corner

Dr. Locrian, I agree Ligotti's compassion seems genuine. I don't doubt it. But Certainly, one can't help but suspect the 'compassion' of some others in that movement. It may well be a small number; but I can't lay claim to stats.
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Old 11-03-2014   #18
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Re: Antinatalists Corner

Are we doing this again?

Apparently so.

May I just point out that this has been gone into ad nauseum. All I can add to it is that the best thread on the subject already exists. This one isn't it.

The best thread on the subject is here:

The Optimism Delusion - David Benatar responds to Richard Dawkins. - Page 4 - THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK

Go read it. And see. Kramdar nails it. And he's not even Catholic.

The dazzling lure of labeling something a "corner" is incredibly boring. I know. I was there first.

Mark S.

"You have no idea how much nastier I'd be if I were not a Catholic. Without supernatural aid I would hardly be a human being." Evelyn Waugh
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Old 11-03-2014   #19
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Re: Antinatalists Corner

I just get the feeling it's the antinatalists who have their own proselytizing mission that pretends to be something it's not.

And I don't know why they feel the need to continually do it if, in the end, all is S H I T without any overarching significance at all.

Again, I refer you to the remarks of Kramdar on the thread already linked to: I don't see that anyone has made more sense.

Mark S.

"You have no idea how much nastier I'd be if I were not a Catholic. Without supernatural aid I would hardly be a human being." Evelyn Waugh
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Old 11-03-2014   #20
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Re: Antinatalists Corner

Cynothoglys nailed it. It's the self-righteous attitude and general smugness of many antinatalists that drive me around the bend. Ligotti doesn't come across like that.
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