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Old 06-18-2017   #1221
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic View Post
James, your information is ALL wrong. If you're considered low income (or no income) your medical needs are all covered. Free.
Wrong again.

Cost Sharing Out of Pocket Costs | Medicaid.gov

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Old 06-18-2017   #1222
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Re: Trump

Out of pocket costs cannot be imposed for emergency services, family planning services, pregnancy-related services, or preventive services for children. Generally, out of pocket costs apply to all Medicaid enrollees except those specifically exempted by law and most are limited to nominal amounts. Exempted groups include children, terminally ill individuals, and individuals residing in an institution. Because Medicaid covers particularly low-income and often very sick patients, services cannot be withheld for failure to pay, but enrollees may be held liable for unpaid copayments.--from your own link, Nirvana.


Yes, a two dollar Medicaid co-payment for an adult means an hundred dollar office visit isn't free.
I certainly don't begrudge any soul health coverage but I just wish I had that coverage. Obama Care made premiums go through the ceiling. Or do you want to debate that? Whatever, I have no time for such nonsense. The streets are too littered with dying children cruelly deprived of medical care.

There is no legitimate reason for any child in today's America to be deprived of health care. And that's a very good thing even if some have trouble in admitting top notch health care is available for children born into low-income households.

Last edited by Druidic; 06-18-2017 at 02:20 AM..
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Old 06-18-2017   #1223
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech View Post

In any case, real virtue is simply impractical on a societal level. We would need to look at the "inner" life of individuals. I hope that helps. I do love philosophy, but I feel I've derailed this thread a bit.
I'd say you gave the thread considerable depth instead of derailing it; philosophy is vastly preferable to bickering over a politician's abilities ( of which, anyway, history will be the judge ).

& yes, i do think a society that does not look into the "inner" life of individuals can hardly be called a society, but is more like a simulacrum of one. Which seems to be pretty much what we've got here, in modernity.

As to your reasoning in regards to the inefficacy of socialism, that it won't work because the rich will never allow their wealth to be siphoned off: the same would hold true of the law, then? If you've ever watched a citizen caught in some offence ( say, speeding ) try to extricate themselves from their responsibility ( "i had no idea of the speed limit here, officer " , "well that sign is pretty unreadable", "oh come on, just a few mph for a brief stretch" &c. ), you'll have an idea of the general unwillingness of people to accept limits, responsibilities imposed upon them.

Should we, therefore, abolish the law?

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Old 06-18-2017   #1224
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Re: Trump

'This is violence against Donald Trump': rightwingers interrupt Julius Caesar play | US news | The Guardian
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Old 06-18-2017   #1225
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech View Post

In any case, real virtue is simply impractical on a societal level. We would need to look at the "inner" life of individuals. I hope that helps. I do love philosophy, but I feel I've derailed this thread a bit.
I'd say you gave the thread considerable depth instead of derailing it; philosophy is vastly preferable to bickering over a politician's abilities ( of which, anyway, history will be the judge ).

& yes, i do think a society that does not look into the "inner" life of individuals can hardly be called a society, but is more like a simulacrum of one. Which seems to be pretty much what we've got here, in modernity.

As to your reasoning in regards to the inefficacy of socialism, that it won't work because the rich will never allow their wealth to be siphoned off: the same would hold true of the law, then? If you've ever watched a citizen caught in some offence ( say, speeding ) try to extricate themselves from their responsibility ( "i had no idea of the speed limit here, officer " , "well that sign is pretty unreadable", "oh come on, just a few mph for a brief stretch" &c. ), you'll have an idea of the general unwillingness of people to accept limits, responsibilities imposed upon them.

Should we, therefore, abolish the law?
This is a great question, so I'll definitely try to provide a great enough answer.

I understand the reductio ad absurdum you're proposing, but my main argument was that the taxes which are intended for the rich are ultimately paid for by the same people who believe the rich are not paying their fair share of taxes. The higher taxes are paid for by those who are not the wealthy elite, and it's paid for through indirect means (e.g., higher consumer costs, lower wages, lower dividends). The state can certainly fund social programs via higher taxes, but the ones who are going to actually pay for it are those who actually need such programs. The rich, the ones who were supposed to pay for them in theory, will not pay for them. Nor do they even require such programs. They'll do what they've always done - they'll invest their money elsewhere. A country which embraces socialist policies is invariably seen as a terrible investment.

I also think that there's a subtle but relevant difference between economics and jurisprudence. The former seems more complicated than the latter in the case of accountability. There's no real argument to be had concerning whether or not it was true that someone either did or did not violate the law. Person X either committed the offense or he didn't. This is not true with respect to whether or not the rich are paying their fair share of taxes. On the surface they are most definitely paying their taxes. They're the ones who actually write the check to the state. But that's only nominally true. Even though they're the ones writing such checks, it's the average person who is paying the actual bill. The question then arises concerning whether or not the rich are paying their fair share of taxes. The answer is that they are on the surface, but not in reality. I personally can't think of any scenario even remotely similar in the case of jurisprudence.

Perhaps I'm overlooking something crucial regarding your analogy, but I don't believe that the actual effects of higher taxation implies that we should abolish all taxes.

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~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"

Last edited by Mr. Veech; 06-18-2017 at 06:44 PM..
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Old 06-18-2017   #1226
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Re: Trump

" A country which embraces socialist policies is invariably seen as a terrible investment." Right, that is why the Swiss economy crushes the U.S. economy and the Swiss franc has almost doubled in value over that last 15 years compared to the US dollar. But a safety net for lower income people, or those without any income, is hardly "socialist" - it is simply social - part of the social contract. The problem with Republicans, as they exist at this point in time, is that they have no interest in the social contract. They just care about themselves. Each person for themselves. And therefore, in the long run, they hurt themselves - because most Republicans are not super wealthy.
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Old 06-19-2017   #1227
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by brendanconnell View Post
" A country which embraces socialist policies is invariably seen as a terrible investment." Right, that is why the Swiss economy crushes the U.S. economy and the Swiss franc has almost doubled in value over that last 15 years compared to the US dollar. But a safety net for lower income people, or those without any income, is hardly "socialist" - it is simply social - part of the social contract. The problem with Republicans, as they exist at this point in time, is that they have no interest in the social contract. They just care about themselves. Each person for themselves. And therefore, in the long run, they hurt themselves - because most Republicans are not super wealthy.
With all due respect, Switzerland is very much a capitalist country, i.e., they're not at all opposed to free-market economics. As a matter of fact, it has the fourth freest economy in the world. Their corporate tax rate is below 18%. The US corporate tax rate is around 40%. You can interpret that however you wish, but I would definitely hesitate to use Switzerland as an example to illustrate your point.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Sweden?

Regardless, who is claiming that safety nets are inherently "socialist?" Safety nets play more or less the same functional role as other services provided through the mediation of the state. The point is that the resources for such safety net programs are provided by the private sector, not the government. The role of the latter is to mediate between individuals. Individuals, not the state, are creating the wealth which, in the case of redistribution, is transferred to other individuals. The welfare state is not at all "socialist" because the state does not possess the kind of immediacy it would in fact have under socialism. Republicans, at least the intelligent ones, are not opposed to safety nets. What they're opposed to is the government's mismanagement of taxpayer money.

EDIT: If you were indeed thinking of Scandinavia in general, then you ought to consider how much the "Nordic model" involves both a sizable welfare state as well as a free market economy. Needless to say, that is most definitely not socialism. Scandinavia has a number of great social programs because their economic infrastructure is productive. You would need to look at places like Cuba, which is vehemently opposed to free markets, in order to bolster your claim.

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~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"

Last edited by Mr. Veech; 06-19-2017 at 10:17 AM..
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Old 06-19-2017   #1228
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech View Post
I personally can't think of any scenario even remotely similar in the case of jurisprudence.

Perhaps I'm overlooking something crucial regarding your analogy
The thing is, the rich are not even paying their taxes, "on the surface"; to the extent that the total amount of evaded corporate taxes in the UK, if actually paid, would go a long way towards alleviating the national deficit.
Thus it becomes a matter of jurisprudence very quickly again - how to close the loopholes in the law that allow corporations to dodge their responsibilities towards the society they make their gains from.

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Old 06-19-2017   #1229
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Re: Trump

FBI reviewed Flynn’s calls with Russian ambassador but found nothing illicit

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.28fd421322cd

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Old 06-19-2017   #1230
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Re: Trump

Investigation Into Trump-Russia Collusion Only 20% Done, Says Senator

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