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Old 06-19-2017   #1231
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech View Post
I personally can't think of any scenario even remotely similar in the case of jurisprudence.

Perhaps I'm overlooking something crucial regarding your analogy
The thing is, the rich are not even paying their taxes, "on the surface"; to the extent that the total amount of evaded corporate taxes in the UK, if actually paid, would go a long way towards alleviating the national deficit.
Thus it becomes a matter of jurisprudence very quickly again - how to close the loopholes in the law that allow corporations to dodge their responsibilities towards the society they make their gains from.
There are most definitely tax loopholes some corporations take advantage of. Large corporations have the ability to hire numerous tax lawyers who can help them cheat the system. That's a fact. However, I personally don't know how many actually take advantage of such loopholes. One would also have to look at both the corporate tax rate alongside the individual income tax rate. I know that in the US most of the income taxes are paid for by those who are the wealthiest.

Nevertheless, I did overlook the tax loophole side of things, which definitely makes your reduction ad absurdum relevant again. I'm going to accept temporary defeat and assume that you're the better man in this case. I still don't accept the conclusion to the reduction ad absurdum on an emotional level, but I can't think of a rational way to defend myself at the moment. Nice counter-argument!

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

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Old 06-19-2017   #1232
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Re: Trump

No, I was not thinking of Scandinavia, I was thinking of Switzerland. My wife is Swiss, a good part of my life I lived there. The things you are calling "socialist" exist there, despite it being a free market economy: guaranteed health coverage for all, social benefits, etc. That is the whole point: a free market economy can exist and prosper while still providing for its citizens. Despite what republican leadership would have you think. ... I will also say, that the actual, real Socialist Party, is extremely strong in Switzerland and currently have a member sitting on the "group of six" - the six people who, essentially, act as the executive branch of government.
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Old 06-19-2017   #1233
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Re: Trump

" resources for such safety net programs are provided by the private sector, not the government".... Wrong. They are provided through taxes. Many extremely profitable private sector corporations pay virtually zero in taxes, which you are clearly aware of in "Nevertheless, I did overlook the tax loophole side of things..." --so, I don't think we are thinking two different things. In the end, most people want a fair society. The question really is how to arrive there. Unfortunately, there are so many special interests muddying the waters of debate, that it is often hard to decipher the true from the false.
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Old 06-19-2017   #1234
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by brendanconnell View Post
" resources for such safety net programs are provided by the private sector, not the government".... Wrong. They are provided through taxes. Many extremely profitable private sector corporations pay virtually zero in taxes, which you are clearly aware of in "Nevertheless, I did overlook the tax loophole side of things..." --so, I don't think we are thinking two different things. In the end, most people want a fair society. The question really is how to arrive there. Unfortunately, there are so many special interests muddying the waters of debate, that it is often hard to decipher the true from the false.
The last time I checked the government ultimately taxes individuals. Even corporate taxes are essentially taxes which apply to individuals. In any case, most of the government's revenue (in the US) comes from individual income taxes provided by the wealthy working in the private sector. Again, most of the taxes used to fund social programs come from the private sector. To dispute that is like disputing whether or not Copernicus was right about the Earth revolving around the Sun. You seem to be claiming that government revenues are paid for via the government, which is simply false in the case of a country (such as Switzerland) which relies upon a free market economy.

That's great that you lived in Switzerland, but that doesn't alter the fact that their economy has a low corporate tax rate compared to the rest of the world, a policy which is strongly advocated by "dirty conservatives." The facts regarding Switzerland's pro-capitalist philosophy haven't changed by you having lived there. There are plenty of Americans who have very little understanding of how their own country's economy functions.

Besides, you're the one who is claiming Switzerland's safety net programs are "socialist." Your whole original argument is grounded on the presumption that I made the rather bold as well as irrational claim that safety nets are "socialist" in nature. But I never once made such a claim. What I claimed was that people who think it's possible to receive social programs simply by taxing the wealthiest members of society are guilty of upholding a superficial view of wealth redistribution. Nothing more, nothing less.

The implication is that you're making simple assumptions about my own position. If you had looked through the thread, you would've seen that what started all this was a conversation regarding Jeremy Corbyn, who is a socialist. If anything, my position is quite moderate compared to most here. I'm neither in favor of completely free markets or socialist planned economies. It seems to me that the vast majority here are in complete favor of the latter, which makes them think that any position that isn't in favor of socialism is "Republicanism in disguise." Not only is this infantile, it stifles all philosophical debate. There's absolutely no attempt to understand the "opposing" side. Far too many people are looking for others who hold the same beliefs that they do so that they can be proven right yet again. Of course, nothing new is learned, but that's the price one pays for always being "right." If someone wishes to have a rational discussion about something on a philosophical plane, then I'm very much inclined to participate. However, if I feel that a person's political ideology stands in the way of such a discussion, then I'm more inclined to simply walk away and read a book instead.

Good evening.

EDIT: The tax loophole issue is something that pertains to the reductio ad absurdum Ibrahim proposed. Even if ALL corporations evaded our tax laws, that doesn't directly change the fact that over half of the US's government revenue comes from the individual income taxes paid by the wealthy who work in the private sector.

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"

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Old 06-20-2017   #1235
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Re: Trump

You seem to be saying I am ignorant of a country I am quite familiar with. I worked with bankers for years in Switzerland. Yes, the corporate tax rate is low. But PEOPLE HAVE TO PAY IT. It is higher in the US, but with the loopholes, many corporations pay zero. It is basically impossible to evade taxes in Switzerland. It is nothing like the US in that sense. Furthermore, there are levels of taxation that don't even exist in the U.S. - Here we pay federal and state taxes, there there are also comunal taxes. There are also requirements for covering your employees that go far beyond here in the US. For instance: Maternity leave, etc. ...You seem to assume I know nothing about anything became... what? I am not a Republican? Ugh.
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Old 06-20-2017   #1236
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Re: Trump

Furthermore, if you lose your job in Switzerland, first year you get 80% of your wages - it then goes down from there. But never. NEVER. Are you just left to figure it out for yourself. The Republican policies are just total ####. That is the fact of the matter. And anyone who claims that they are not total #### just doesnt know what they are talking about.
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Old 06-20-2017   #1237
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Re: Trump

You throw around the word Socialist without knowing what you are talking about. Labour is not Socialist. It is Labour. There are actual Socialist parties... And, if you are "moderate" you don't sound like it. Corbyn is moderate.
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Old 06-20-2017   #1238
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by brendanconnell View Post
You seem to be saying I am ignorant of a country I am quite familiar with. I worked with bankers for years in Switzerland. Yes, the corporate tax rate is low. But PEOPLE HAVE TO PAY IT. It is higher in the US, but with the loopholes, many corporations pay zero. It is basically impossible to evade taxes in Switzerland. It is nothing like the US in that sense. Furthermore, there are levels of taxation that don't even exist in the U.S. - Here we pay federal and state taxes, there there are also comunal taxes. There are also requirements for covering your employees that go far beyond here in the US. For instance: Maternity leave, etc. ...You seem to assume I know nothing about anything became... what? I am not a Republican? Ugh.
Ugh, indeed. I would definitely reread the part where I said that most of the federal government's tax revenue comes from the income tax of individuals working in the private sector. As a matter of fact, roughly 46% of the US government's revenue comes from individual income taxes. Corporate taxes only account for roughly 10%. These are the facts, i.e., I'm not making this stuff up in order to support some political agenda.

Corbyn's not a socialist?

Jeremy Corbyn pledges as he plans business tax hike and benefits free-for-all

Switzerland doesn't look socialist to me. It looks like it has a robust welfare state sustained by a free market economy. It actually looks as if the Swiss embrace moderation, something I've been proposing on a practical level all along.

Switzerland Economy: Population, GDP, Inflation, Business, Trade, FDI, Corruption

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"

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Old 06-20-2017   #1239
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Re: Trump

No, you are claiming that PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS are paying corporate taxes. This is total nonsense. Either the corporations are paying taxes or not. You can't claim that people working for them have anything to do with it. Corporations are raking in the highest profits in ages and still are trying to get more tax breaks. This is immoral. Furthermore, the wealthy of the USA pay far too little taxes and the middle class and poor, far too much. Why do you think there is the highest concentration of wealth in the smallest number of individuals in history? And, just a random guess, you are not one of those individuals. They and their lobbyists have just convinced you that somehow this is all okay....
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Old 06-20-2017   #1240
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by brendanconnell View Post
No, you are claiming that PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS are paying corporate taxes. This is total nonsense. Either the corporations are paying taxes or not. You can't claim that people working for them have anything to do with it. Corporations are raking in the highest profits in ages and still are trying to get more tax breaks. This is immoral. Furthermore, the wealthy of the USA pay far too little taxes and the middle class and poor, far too much. Why do you think there is the highest concentration of wealth in the smallest number of individuals in history? And, just a random guess, you are not one of those individuals. They and their lobbyists have just convinced you that somehow this is all okay....
Can you tax a tree or even a building with a corporate logo on it? No, you can't. You can only tax individuals. I guess there could be a number of corporations out there that exist in the manner of Platonic universals that are supposed to pay their taxes. My guess (and I could very well be wrong) is that corporate taxes are ultimately paid by individuals, i.e., human beings. Human beings are the ones who have to write a check to the state.

Furthermore, you made the claim that the poor are paying too many taxes (which sounds very "Republican" on the surface). But even Republicans know that roughly 40%-45% of Americans, including the poorest Americans, pay no income tax. As a matter of fact, they get a tax refund in the mail. This is common knowledge (or so I thought):

44% Of Americans Wont Pay Any Federal Income Tax | Zero Hedge

With all due respect, you're being irrational. You seem very upset, so I'm walking away for now. I don't take pleasure in making people angry. Perhaps we can continue this debate at a later time.

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"

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