Is Weird Fiction Slanted Towards Western Values?

[Mr. Veech]

Quote Originally Posted by gveranon

Quote Originally Posted by rhysaurus But the moment in history we let ourselves go -- the moment we became lazy, indolent, obese, and weak -- we fatally disrupted that balance. The result was physical degeneration and also mental illness. And one of the symptoms of this imbalance is... existential despair. Existential despair simply doesn't exist for the organism in perfect tune with its environment, for the purely physical being. And existential despair is the godfather of Weird fiction (certain kinds of Weird fiction anyway). Western values (the primacy of technology, for example) have led to Western lifestyles and to a profound sickness of the body, mind and soul. Weird fiction feeds of this sickness. This doesn't mean that Weird fiction doesn't have value (considerable value, in my view) but let us be aware of why it exists. Yes, there are traditions of 'ghost' and 'horror' stories among 'primitive' peoples, but they are of an entirely different order. They may be frightening but there is no despair in them. They are existentially clean. This thread has arrived at something like the psycho-physical cultural diagnosis put forth in Max Nordau's Degeneration (1892). I find this ironic because I remember reading somewhere that Lovecraft (as one might expect, given his other opinions regarding modern degeneracy) agreed with Nordau!

I've never heard of Nordau, but you can find similar ideas in Leopardi, Nietzsche, and Spengler. I personally had Leopardi in mind. In his personal writings he incessantly refers to "modern" man as sick when compared to the ancients because of the former's state of development with regard to Reason, which ultimately reveals the "nothingness of things." I think he's more or less right.

There are things which we were perhaps never meant to know.

@ Speaking Mute

"On a tangent, mind-body dualism is a very shallow typecast of Western Philosophy - the way that it's usually described even in respect to Descartes is a straw-man. People forget that Descartes himself was an anatomist, and that everything most people would think of as essential to "mind" - sensations, emotions, imagination, and subjectivity - he attributed to liquids coursing through a brain he envisioned as nothing more than a complicated water pump. The "mind" that Descartes separated from inert matter was essentially nothing more than knowledge of mathematical and ethical laws. And this mind was as dependent on a supreme being as the matter that it reflected upon: Descartes was fundamentally a monist."

This is true, but most people, even professors or students of philosophy, prefer the "mind-body dualist" trope because it requires less work. I've noticed how many "novel" philosophical ideas usually begin with straw-man refutations. If one really looks at the Western philosophical tradition, then one would see far more agreement than disagreement. Disagreement always implies some fundamental agreement concerning the topic being discussed, even if the source of agreement in question is not made explicit. If there's no agreement, then an argument is rendered quite literally meaningless.

[Druidic]

There's always a trade off. The Ancients lived shorter lives, were plagued by diseases we can cure today, and I doubt they were happier. Existential despair is overrated. The past is idealized.

[Mr. Veech]

Quote Originally Posted by Druidic

There's always a trade off. The Ancients lived shorter lives, were plagued by diseases we can cure today, and I doubt they were happier. Existential despair is overrated. The past is idealized.

I could be wrong, but I suspect the average Greek or Roman would've been more concerned with personal achievement as well as excellence of character than they were about "happiness," unless it's construed in the Aristotelian sense. I imagine happiness was perceived as the byproduct of manly pursuits, not the goal. The "pursuit of happiness" is, I believe, a more modern idea, an idea which ultimately leads to disillusionment. I suppose all cultures become obsessed with happiness once there's no more reason to be great.

I feel that I've perhaps been personally weakened by my upbringing. I'm not just referring to the moral principles my parents tried to instill in me; I'm also referring to the culture at large. It would've been far better to have taught me exactly how disappointing and hostile life is to the human organism. My grandfather, for instance, grew up in the Great Depression, fought during World War II, and lived through the death of both his son and grandchild. Although he would never refer to himself this way, he is a pessimist. But he didn't get his "pessimism" from esoteric books - he just knew that life sucked. That's all he knew at the time. There was no alternative.

We've tasted happiness, and it turned out to be a chimera.

[Druidic]

If Freud is right about the pleasure principle man has always pursued happiness in some form or other. For some its climbing a mountain; for others, its reading a book. So it goes.

[gveranon]

Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech

Quote Originally Posted by gveranon Quote Originally Posted by rhysaurus But the moment in history we let ourselves go -- the moment we became lazy, indolent, obese, and weak -- we fatally disrupted that balance. The result was physical degeneration and also mental illness. And one of the symptoms of this imbalance is... existential despair. Existential despair simply doesn't exist for the organism in perfect tune with its environment, for the purely physical being. And existential despair is the godfather of Weird fiction (certain kinds of Weird fiction anyway). Western values (the primacy of technology, for example) have led to Western lifestyles and to a profound sickness of the body, mind and soul. Weird fiction feeds of this sickness. This doesn't mean that Weird fiction doesn't have value (considerable value, in my view) but let us be aware of why it exists. Yes, there are traditions of 'ghost' and 'horror' stories among 'primitive' peoples, but they are of an entirely different order. They may be frightening but there is no despair in them. They are existentially clean. This thread has arrived at something like the psycho-physical cultural diagnosis put forth in Max Nordau's Degeneration (1892). I find this ironic because I remember reading somewhere that Lovecraft (as one might expect, given his other opinions regarding modern degeneracy) agreed with Nordau! I've never heard of Nordau, but you can find similar ideas in Leopardi, Nietzsche, and Spengler....

True, but the crystallization of these ideas in Nordau's Degeneration is startlingly close to what was expressed in this thread about weird fiction being a result of modern, Western physico-mental degeneration. And I continue to find this funny because Lovecraft had read Nordau and (of course, given Lovecraft's own views) agreed with this diagnosis of modernity as biologically degenerate.

[qcrisp]

Lecture about Nietzsche and nature that might be apropos:

https://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/nietzsche-soul-nature