Respecting the Beliefs of Others

Should we respect the beliefs of others even if they are obviously false? Should truth take a backseat to good manners?


To head off any potential misunderstandings, I offer the following definitions.

Fact

Something that truly exists or happens
Something that has actual existence
A thing that is indisputably the case


Real

Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence
True and actual; not imaginary, alleged, or ideal: real people, not ghosts
Genuine and authentic; not artificial or spurious
Free of pretense, falsehood, or affectation
Existing objectively in the world regardless of subjectivity or conventions of thought or language.

True

In accordance with fact or reality.


Not too difficult to understand, I hope.


What are some truisms? Let's use the examples of the Earth being very old and that all life has evolved. These are scientific facts. There is overwhelming evidence to support these claims. They are not to be disputed by any reasonable person. Now here, for whatever incomprehensible reason, is where many people lose their way. ALL METAPHYSICAL SUPPOSITIONS, if they are to be taken seriously, and the people who make them not to be considered laughingstocks, MUST BE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THESE TRUTHS. Sadly, this relegates millions, if not billions, of people into the category of ignorant fools.

As far as "religious truths" - those subjective spiritual fancies that are indistinguishable from thoughts born of chemical imbalances or dyspeptic fever dreams brought on by the consumption of a moldy potato - they mean nothing. And all such "truths" can be dismissed outright.

Now that this trivia has been discarded, we can move on to something substantive.


How should someone with these beliefs be dealt with?





Dinosaurs by David C. Read

"The name evokes wonder and amazement. It also raises interesting questions: When did the dinosaurs live? Where did they come from? Why did they become extinct? Science has answers to these questions, but science is guided by a godless philosophy. What should Seventh-day Adventist Christians, guided by Scripture and the prophetic writings of Ellen G. White, think about the dinosaurs? In his book, Dinosaurs: An Adventist View, David Read eloquently addresses these questions, and much more."


It is the year 2014. Enough is enough. For the good of civilization, we need to understand the origins of this pathological way of thinking, and do whatever is necessary to halt the perpetuation of this diseased perception of the world. There needs to be some acceptable level of intellectual hygiene. If you think that indulging this kind of insanity doesn't have larger repercussions, think again. The eradication of this psychological mange should be a societal imperative. The notion of higher civilization demands it.


The problem is this: due to political correctness, the phony respect we afford some people's outrageous beliefs allow these pestilential views to breed unchecked and become politically significant. This respect-by-default position of discourse when dealing with religious moderates shields the more fundamentalist aspects of faith when we should be calling all faith-based systems onto the carpet to put up or shut up.

All belief systems, like all cultures, are NOT equal.

The most significant consequence of this cultural constraint on discourse is the indoctrination of children into this nonsense. Generation after generation are fed into the maw of superstitious lunacy. It has got to stop. As Richard Dawkins pointed out, identifying a child as a Catholic child, a Muslim child, a Protestant child, and the like, is obscene. And it is all about the deference we show to religion. If someone used a similar classification for, say, economic systems: a capitalist child, a communist child, etc., this language would be recognized at once and justly ridiculed by all. But for some misguided reason, religion escapes such scrutiny. Children are not sufficiently mature to make such decisions. Few escape from this cultural imprinting, and the majority of mankind are lost. What a waste.


In the not so distant past, parents could have an slew of children and have them work the farm from dawn till dusk. Then came enlightened child labor laws. Also severe corporal punishment could be meted out by parents with impunity. Again, this is no longer the case. The next progressive step forward - and an inevitable one - is to protect children from the more often than not ridiculous beliefs of their parents. To some this might seem like secular society is overstepping its bounds. Tough sh*t! It is going to happen and there is nothing you can do about it. Your children are not your property. They are individuals that have rights, and one of those rights is not to be lied to by those who are in charge of their care.

Sin? Faith? Worship? The way these subterranean undesirables talk makes my skin crawl. The keys to the kingdom of a sane secular society, I believe, lie in two things: conversational intolerance and the recognition that the religious indoctrination of children is a form of child abuse. These problems need to be addressed.

*

YouTube

[symbolique]

nil

You'll get no argument from me (and no real argument from anyone else, as there isn't a viable one).

I aspire to a state of equanimity about the topic which would enable me to view those who suffer from this "psychological mange", as you put it, with the amused incredulity referred to in the video. Unfortunately, I usually only achieve a sort of malicious exasperation. Therefore, I try my best to simply not engage with religious sorts at all. Difficult, as I come from a typical family of Protestant uncritical believers-by-default, and my wife's people are largely virtually brain damaged Christians of the "born again" variety.

My own view is best summarized by reference to a quote from one of my children (yeah, not an antinatalist, either, and I consider certain philosophical positions to partake of the same self-righteous moralizing that religion does) in response to their mother telling them Santa Claus exists: "I don't think lies are fun. Why are you lying to me?"

[njhorror]

People believe in all sorts of crazy philosophies, like communism for example, but I treat my communist friends with respect and tolerance, as long as they don't try to convert me.

[Druidic]

Well, FP, you want a "sane secular society," eh? You say these problems must be addressed. Cheer up, they have. Stalin and Mao (not the vaudeville team) gave it their best shot. You really want a repeat of that? And if you say it will be different this time then I have to question who labors under the greatest illusions.
Rudeness should never be tolerated. On that I agree totally with Dr. Lecter.

[Malone]

Amen to that, Druidic. As far as I'm aware freedom of thought, speech, opinion and belief are necessary components of a 'higher civilisation' (whatever that is supposed to signify).

The idea that Dawkins, Harris and co. seem to be obsessed by, namely that religious belief is the only thing standing between us and Utopia, is so laughable and shallow as to be genuinely beyond belief. Those people are in denial of human history and human nature, ironic when they bang on constantly about the need for observing 'facts' and 'evidence' when forming opinions.

Quote Originally Posted by symbolique

Respect is earned not given.

If only this were the case, but it isn't. Cultural pressure for "respecting diversity" has clouded our judgment. If we hear people talk about a soul entering a zygote at the moment of conception, or of golden tablets brought by some angel mandating the use of magical underwear, and equally profound nonsense, we stand there mute until we can extricate ourselves from the situation. We should be laughing in their faces.

Quote Originally Posted by Howarth

You'll get no argument from me (and no real argument from anyone else, as there isn't a viable one).

You will usually get arguments against your "beliefs" when you are not there. Some loudmouth baying to a crowd of like-minded numbskulls. And, sadly, a "real argument" is not a limiting factor for these types.

Quote Originally Posted by Howarth

I aspire to a state of equanimity about the topic which would enable me to view those who suffer from this "psychological mange", as you put it,

I sometimes deliberately go a little over the top to liven things up, but my stance is sincere. There are a few other phrases of this type in the OP. I blame it on my marketing background, and lack of free will, of course.

Quote Originally Posted by Cynothoglys

It seems like both sides of the theist vs atheist battle are so busy talking that they can't be bothered to listen to the other side. Why listen to someone else when you know everything, right? Civility be damned...

Civility has its place, but if a child writes on the blackboard that 2+2=5, how many times must you courteously point out that he is incorrect? And after you explain it to him at length and he still insists that the answer is five? When he grows up and starts teaching his children that 2+2=5?




There are ramifications for the polite silence we maintain regarding religion. Every single child on the cover of this Jehovah Witness magazine Awake died by "putting God first" because their parents disallowed them from getting adequate medical care. They prayed instead. Thirty-eight of our fifty states in the U.S. allow religious exemptions in the treatment of illness. The parent decides, not the doctor. Some died from refusing a simple blood transfusion. The doctors were forced to stand by and watch them die. The parents were not held accountable.




Time to choose a side, people.

[Justin Isis]

Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten Prisoner

Time to choose a side, people.

Not really sure there are so few sides that choosing would make sense...if you're dividing the world into materialist rationalist atheists and everyone else then I'm against you from the start since "matter" obviously does not exist and 2+2 clearly = 5 under non-Aristotelian conditions of "floating math" (given similar conditions, 6 x 3 sometimes = not only 18 but as much as 21 or 22)* I would be willing to get into a fistfight about this. But "religious people" never seem to want to get my back even when I invite them to good events with cocaine and transsexuals. Still, I wouldn't mind if Markitty dropped a church on kids if it meant they would stop being bothered. I think we should bring Bishop Sheen back from the dead vampire style with his cape and chalkboard and sic him on these chumps

"Regard communism as a kind of manure!"
-Fulton J. Sheen

"KMFDM. Doing it again."
-Fulton J. Sheen

*the Floating Integer is real. It comes in the night.

[DoktorH]

do you mean in general or here on TLO specifically? also, is this specifically about religious views, or any preference/belief/idea that does not fit your liking?

On TLO: if someone is posting things that upset you due to their obvious falseness, just block the person. whether it is religious, political, thickheaded misunderstanding of a beloved book/movie/whatever, just click the Ignore button so their obvious falsehoods will no longer detract from your TLO user experience.

in offline social dealings, the same approach works. The same improvements to society that prohibit the enslavement and routine beating of children also prevent us from antagonizing people with views different from our own (and prevents them from antagonizing us). the respect-by-default approach does not just apply to religions. it applies to everyone, because a town/culture/whatever where individuals treat each other respectfully is a more enjoyable town/culture/whatever to live in than one where they don't.

Personally, I've tried a bunch of different religions, but none of them stuck, as i didn't get enough out of it to keep participating. I understand that other people get a lot out of it, really enjoy it, so they keep participating. they respect me enough to leave me to my own diversions, and I do the same for them

i tend to see religion as a form of entertainment, and the religious groups are just different fandoms, no different from the trekkers, Star Wars folk, homestucks, bronies, whovians, TLOers, etc. it is all malignantly useless, but it is all fun to someone.

	TLO THOMAS LIGOTTI ONLINE

[njhorror]

My profoundest apologies. I didn't realize that this thread was a joke. But now it's become quite obvious, except . . . Bishop Sheen as vampire?
You don't think . . . ?

No, of course not!


Unless . . .