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Old 4 Days Ago   #81
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

There are multifarious types of antinatalism and diverse ethical reasons for adhering to one of the variants, but I have never heard anybody justify their antinatalism with a position that suffering is easy to overcome, and the most common argument for antinatalism is to reduce mass suffering, so claiming antinatalists emotionally suffering when they are dying is inherently contradictory or absurd makes no sense because the profound negative value they apply to unreasonable suffering of that sort is why most antinatalists are antinatalists.

'I believe in what the Germans term Ehrfurcht: reverence for things one cannot understand.'
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Old 4 Days Ago   #82
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

What's so wrong with suffering? Isn't that part of the human experience?

I know folks that have led (relatively speaking) easy lives, came from money, have never know desperation, have never lost somebody they love. They are almost unbearable to be around-- narrow minded, heartless idiots. I'm thankful for my suffering, with it comes growth, wisdom, compassion.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #83
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

Quote Originally Posted by GirlyGirlMask View Post
What's so wrong with suffering? Isn't that part of the human experience?

I know folks that have led (relatively speaking) easy lives, came from money, have never know desperation, have never lost somebody they love. They are almost unbearable to be around-- narrow minded, heartless idiots. I'm thankful for my suffering, with it comes growth, wisdom, compassion.

That resonates with me. Thanks.

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Old 4 Days Ago   #84
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
There are multifarious types of antinatalism and diverse ethical reasons for adhering to one of the variants, but I have never heard anybody justify their antinatalism with a position that suffering is easy to overcome, and the most common argument for antinatalism is to reduce mass suffering, so claiming antinatalists emotionally suffering when they are dying is inherently contradictory or absurd makes no sense because the profound negative value they apply to unreasonable suffering of that sort is why most antinatalists are antinatalists.
I see your point, and my earlier comment was overly flippant. My apologies.

But the best people I know are balanced. They are balanced because they have suffered. How would I appreciate life's wonders if I hadn't suffered? I hiked three miles in knee deep snow and stopped near a lake at the precipice of a mountain tucked away in the Rockies. The snowflakes floated down, gently. I wept like an old woman. Some around me were probably quietly mocking me. My 11 year-old daughter was concerned, she'd never seen her grumpy old man cry. But I appreciated the humbling experience of a mountain telling me "you are nobody, you will be gone for a million years, and I'll still be here." How could I feel that trembling sense of awe had I not suffered?
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Old 4 Days Ago   #85
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

Of course there are sufferings which one can "learn" from, but there are also sufferings which break the mind and body at once or slowly. Just because some people haven't experienced this type of suffering doesn't mean they won't in the future, doesn't mean their children won't in their future. There is no absolute guarantee. A person doesn't have to strain the eyes to see suffering in the world at large, and see in each face twisted in pain the face of his or her own. After all, it's a matter of chance that a person is born without defect or living in a 1st world country or not trapped in a basement awaiting torture.

"Tell me how you want to die, and I'll tell you who you are. In other words, how do you fill out an empty life? With women, books, or worldly ambitions? No matter what you do, the starting point is boredom, and the end self-destruction. The emblem of our fate: the sky teeming with worms. Baudelaire taught me that life is the ecstasy of worms in the sun, and happiness the dance of worms."
---Tears and Saints, E. M. Cioran
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Old 4 Days Ago   #86
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

The human condition. Seemingly one of hope and despair. I know one day soon I shall despair, too. We all do.

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Old 4 Days Ago   #87
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

Quote Originally Posted by ToALonelyPeace View Post
Of course there are sufferings which one can "learn" from, but there are also sufferings which break the mind and body at once or slowly. Just because some people haven't experienced this type of suffering doesn't mean they won't in the future, doesn't mean their children won't in their future. There is no absolute guarantee. A person doesn't have to strain the eyes to see suffering in the world at large, and see in each face twisted in pain the face of his or her own. After all, it's a matter of chance that a person is born without defect or living in a 1st world country or not trapped in a basement awaiting torture.
I have three children. They will all suffer, one more than the others, I'm sure of it. It's a tough thing to think about.

I grew up with a girl that was crippled from birth, then died in her twenties of throat cancer. How does one person deserve that much suffering? Well, she didn't deserve it. But she made the best of it. And I can promise you she wouldn't have traded her twenty-something years of hardship for no life at all.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #88
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

We all appreciate literature. How would I know the power of Ligotti had I not first known the impotence of Koontz?

I've come to the wrong thread. As much heartache as I've felt, as many times as I've thought about suicide, I still can't relate to this mindset. I've said my piece, all the best to everyone. Life is a struggle. But I still cherish it.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #89
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

Quote Originally Posted by GirlyGirlMask View Post
We all appreciate literature. How would I know the power of Ligotti had I not first known the impotence of Koontz?

I've come to the wrong thread. As much heartache as I've felt, as many times as I've thought about suicide, I still can't relate to this mindset. I've said my piece, all the best to everyone. Life is a struggle. But I still cherish it.

Beautiful. And do come back to this thread.

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Old 3 Days Ago   #90
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

I don't think it matters what a writer or a person attaches themselves to in terms of an "ism", necessarily. I was a very active surrealist for a long time and I still enjoyed "miserabilism" quite thoroughly. The one you attach yourself to spiritually is probably is the most important, and calling antinatalism spiritual would only be presenting it as Christianity in a very inverted, perverse way. "The Last Man", Zapffe, etc etc. (And such a happy looking guy.)
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