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Old 06-05-2011   #41
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Quote Originally Posted by DoktorH View Post
so why are these anti-natalist philosophers in such a hurry? the abolishment of humans is already guaranteed. All works of humans will erode/degrade. even the cockroaches and twinkies so frequently assumed to survive anything will, eventually, join us in the dust. if they sincerely wnat to hasten the process, why aren't there more mad scientists with doomsday devices?
My feeling is there's a Dave-the-Moon-Man syndrome at work.


“Specialists without spirit, sensualists without heart; this nullity imagines that it has attained a level of civilization never before achieved." - Max Weber
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Old 06-05-2011   #42
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Quote Originally Posted by qcrisp View Post
My feeling is there's a Dave-the-Moon-Man syndrome at work.
so they're kooks. i can dig it.

Other posts have linked anti-natalism to existential despair, and I don't think that link is always there. I'm quite happy with a meaningless existence, as it means i can give it whatever meaning I like. it's a Mad Lib. there are no wrong answers.

What bums me out, what gets my goat, is that I am stuck in a society where pro-natalism is the norm and where i must, whenever interacting socially with others, be ready to drop whatever else i was doing and defend my anti-natalism. I've gotten fuming, spitting, sputtering mad trying to explain my disinclination to copulate and procreate to people who think these things are as essential to life as breathing and excreting.

Such experiences make me suspect that if anti-natalists tend to be a bit crazy, it is because pro-natalists drive us crazy. It may not be why alcohol was invented, but it certainly contributes to the annual sales of the stuff.
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Old 06-05-2011   #43
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

on that note, if someone you care about is thinking about procreating and you need a hard and fast way to talk them out of it, I suggest The Children The Children (2008) - IMDb

Several couples with their tots in tow converge on the stately home of a friend/relative, at which point everyone under the age of 6 decides to kill off anyone older than themselves by any means possible. Also makes a great baby-shower gift, so when your pal winds up in traction because Junior left toy cars on the stairs you can send flowers with a note reading "I told you so."
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Old 06-05-2011   #44
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

"Dave the Moon Man" -- great song! I've never wanted children myself, but I don't care if others choose to have them. This indifference probably disqualifies me from being an antinatalist. It's possible, of course, that I manifest Dave-the-Moon-Man syndrome on other topics; I'd almost be disappointed if I didn't. I enjoy reading philosophy, and without Dave-the-Moon-Man syndrome many interesting philosophical positions would go unargued.

Quote Originally Posted by Karnos View Post
She was really shocked when I told her my answer, and she was even more shaken when I told her my reasons.

Her answer: "You're a very selfish person"

I'm still trying to figure out how genuinely not wanting to bring an innocent life to suffer on this world is considered an act of selfishness.
This is probably one of those topics on which the majority of even intelligent people will simply ignore any unconventional argument (not disagree with it, ignore it; the ears stop up, the mind refuses) and then proceed to utter the stock response.

Another example: At least in the U.S., if you tell someone you don't vote and carefully explain your reasons why, you will get -- no, not a disagreement with your reasons -- the following bit of folk unwisdom, which everyone seems to have memorized: "If you don't vote, you can't complain."
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Old 06-05-2011   #45
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

I think it’s a semantics thing. If I have no desire to have children that’s my personal choice. DoktorH, I never meant to imply that that’s rooted in existential despair. It’s a personal preference. Born possibly of logic: I don’t want/need children, I can’t afford them, I’ve got a bad temper and shouldn’t be around children, I want to pursue a career...whatever! These are preferences to me, I really don’t see any of that as necessarily being antinatalism. You’re not trying to make a case for the extinction of the race. Antinatalism as a philosophy has, I believe, its roots in existential despair, the sense that the world is too horrible for conscious life; again whatever. If that isn’t an existential cry I’d be surprised. Your attitude is reasonable: you object to the reactions of others, basically telling you how you should feel. That’s arrogance on their part. Your anger is understandable! In short they are the unreasonable ones.
Difference between preference and a Philosophy (with a capital P)? Preference: For me. Philosophy: a tacit understanding what’s good for me is good for my brother. Hint: Don’t move next door to a man who practices self-flagellation for what he believes are objective religious/philosophical reasons. He’ll soon decide you need the benefits of his wisdom . Whether you want them or not.

Last edited by Montag; 06-05-2011 at 10:50 PM..
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Old 06-05-2011   #46
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Quote Originally Posted by Montag View Post
You’re not trying to make a case for the extinction of the race. Antinatalism as a philosophy has, I believe, its roots in existential despair, the sense that the world is too horrible for conscious life; again whatever. If that isn’t an existential cry I’d be surprised.
fair enough. I can't help but wonder, though, if the horrible-ness is all in their heads, a byproduct of having more consciousness than they need to get along happily. The Conspiracy Against the Human Race gets into that a bit as I recall.

There is hope, though. This excess of consciousness may be self-correcting! Why Intelligent People Drink More Alcohol | Psychology Today
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Old 06-05-2011   #47
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Intelligent people know they have too many brain cells. They're also smart enough to know how to get rid of them!
Good song by the way.
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Old 06-06-2011   #48
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Quote Originally Posted by DoktorH View Post
I can't help but wonder, though, if the horrible-ness is all in their heads, a byproduct of having more consciousness than they need to get along happily. The Conspiracy Against the Human Race gets into that a bit as I recall.

There is hope, though. This excess of consciousness may be self-correcting! Why Intelligent People Drink More Alcohol | Psychology Today
Another way of looking at it might be that with more consciousness comes more consciousness of objective reality (I believe in a reality that is separate from humans' perceptions of it) and objective reality doesn't look good.

Well, time to pour myself a drink. I like to think I'm intelligent.
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Old 06-06-2011   #49
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Personally, I think it would probably be better if the Big Bang had never happened, or that life had never developed. But I'm also aware that having children is extremely important to a lot of people and if I were able to convince any of those people not to have children that would be very harmful to those people. Although, I doubt many people who have decided to have children would be swayed by intellectual arguments against it. Still, I don't usually talk about antinatalism, partly because it is disturbing to most who want children and partly for fear of hostile reactions.
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Old 06-06-2011   #50
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

[quote=DoktorH;66044]
Quote Originally Posted by Montag View Post

There is hope, though. This excess of consciousness may be self-correcting! Why Intelligent People Drink More Alcohol | Psychology Today
I don't know, I drink a lot of alcohol and I am not exactly bright and I know people who are light years more stupid than me and consume even more alcohol.

I think this study is bs...

Anyway, people die...
-Current 93


I am simply an accident. Why take it all so seriously?
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