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Old 02-24-2014   #1
matteo
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Exclamation Against Antinatalism

The vast majority of people enjoy life and have considerably good lives. Most people are glad to be alive, and even those who experience suffering still prefer to have been born despite of all hardships they have experienced in their lives. Why is suffering not a reason to exist, when most people who suffer still prefer to exist?

Why would we give veto to such a small minority of harmed people who wouldn't consent their existence? We have the consent of the vast majority.
Why the opinion of the such a small minority has so much weight to antinatalists?
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Old 02-24-2014   #2
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Re: Against Antinatalism

I have no idea why people who are not antinatalists are so eager to be fans of Thomas Ligotti.

Thomas Ligotti IS antinatalist.

Now you come to this website (granted, non-official) and you ask why antinatalism?

To me, thatīs like questioning the very works of art that you (ALL) say you so fondly love. They were all based upon his worldview, and thus, antinatalism as well.

Grow up, everybody.

Over and out.

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Old 02-24-2014   #3
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Re: Against Antinatalism

Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post

To me, thatīs like questioning the very works of art that you (ALL) say you so fondly love. They were all based upon his worldview, and thus, antinatalism as well.

Grow up, everybody.

Over and out.
Must admit, I don't understand this. It would be a tall order to agree with every word of every author whose works I love, not least of all because they all contradict each other. Since when did works of art become things we're not allowed to question?

“Specialists without spirit, sensualists without heart; this nullity imagines that it has attained a level of civilization never before achieved." - Max Weber
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Old 02-24-2014   #4
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Re: Against Antinatalism

Lovecraft, Ezra Pound, T. S Elliot, Jack London and too many others to mention were racists or Anti-Semites. So if I'm passionate about their work I should be racist or antisemitic as well?
That's utter rubbish. It's the art that matters more than the artist.
Good response, qcrisp!
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Old 02-24-2014   #5
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Re: Against Antinatalism

Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
I have no idea why people who are not antinatalists are so eager to be fans of Thomas Ligotti.

Thomas Ligotti IS antinatalist.

Now you come to this website (granted, non-official) and you ask why antinatalism?

To me, thatīs like questioning the very works of art that you (ALL) say you so fondly love. They were all based upon his worldview, and thus, antinatalism as well.

Grow up, everybody.

Over and out.
I guess the one who needs to grow up is you.

Nothing wrong with enjoying an author whose philosophy or personality you don't agree with. Why is it so difficult for a good lot of people to separate the artist from their art? I heavily dislike Harlan Ellison as a person, doesn't mean I can't enjoy his work.

Do we need to split hairs here? Lovecraft's fiction had a heavy prejudice against what he considered racial trash. Does that mean that people need to be on the same frequency to "eagerly be" fans of his work?

You make things more complicated than what they really are.

As for Mr Ligotti's fiction and overall worldview and the type of folks it attracts: he is more than just the limited audience of this website, and you'll find people of all walks of life attracted to it. I suppose that the norm are the folks who enjoy the work of a master in mood, setting and symbolism, in other words, the people who enjoy fine literature.

I still remember when I discovered The Nightmare Factory omnibus, back in 2000 or 2001, and started furiously looking for Mr. Ligotti's work online and people who shared the same admiration. I don't remember seeing even a quarter of this whole antinatalism business that this far looks more like a desperate circus of show and tell. It really is sad that the work of such a great writer has come to be hijacked by a certain mob mentality instead of recognition for his mastery in prose and technique.

But hey, it's the internet, and we're all edgy and dangerous here...

Anyway, people die...
-Current 93


I am simply an accident. Why take it all so seriously?
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Old 02-24-2014   #6
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Re: Against Antinatalism

I don't think anyone is under any obligation to subscribe to someone's ideology in order to appreciate their work as a writer of fictions or other. Like qcrisp noted, you're bound to encounter great writers with mutually exclusive views. What will you do then, pull a HAL 9000? Of course not.

Anyway, back to matteo.

First of all, I'm not sure that "most people" is a good indicator of anything. In general terms, yes, it can be useful to have a consensus on the basics of what we deem reality (e.g. 'most people' will agree the grass is green and blood is red; this, of course, leaves daltonics and the blind and some of the mentally challenged out... but we're only concerned with the "most people", so to hell with them). But on more specific issues, well, things begin to fall apart.

One could argue the vast majority of people have convinced themselves that life is worth living because the alternative is too horrible, or because thanks to their specific sociocultural upbringing they can't even conceive of an alternative.

If I may, I'd like to suggest you take some time off your schedule and take a look at the now infamous "Antinatalists Attack!" thread:

Antinatalists, attack! - THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK

It's packed with all kinds of opinions on the subject, all kinds of arguments, all sides of the fence. It might not give you a definite answer nor convince you to swing one way or the other, but it's a good starting point to see what the whole thing is, or isn't, about.
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Old 02-24-2014   #7
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Re: Against Antinatalism

I am a fan of Mr. Ligotti because he is one of the best short story writers of all time. He speaks to our fears of what the world may be. It doesn't matter whether he is right or wrong in some objective sense because the fears are real. Some may think that they are not fears but are a form of reporting reality. Others may think that this is how things could become. Others may think that his writing is what the world would be without God. Still others may think that he truthfully records this generations nightmares but that waking reality is separate and different.For Literature none of these opinions matter. The important thing is that we all suspend disbelief and are pulled into the bleak, nightmare universe of Mr. Ligotti whenever we read one of his stories. That is the mark of a great writer. I do not see Mr. Ligotti as simply a horror writer. I see him standing with such great writers as F. Scott Fitzgerald and Katherine Anne Porter - not to mention Poe, et al. This is why so many readers read him in the first place. What does it matter if a reader does not believe exactly as he does? We need to respect each others viewpoints and keep the important thing, Mr. Ligotti's work, in mind. I'm sure that every member of TLO agrees that he is an effective, fascinating writer.

"A Mad World, MY Masters"
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Old 02-24-2014   #8
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Re: Against Antinatalism

I think folks are pouncing on Shadow rather quickly. Whereas it's certain that one needn't be an Antinatalist to be a fan of Thomas Ligotti's, I think it's rather bizarre, and borderline trolling, for someone to come here and post a hollow broadside against Ligotti's philosophy. Agree with him or not, Ligotti forwards a reasoned position that's been a major component of his literary work. It's doesn't sum Ligotti up as an artist, but here of all places it deserves its due.
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Old 02-24-2014   #9
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Re: Against Antinatalism

Maybe this is just paranoia, but . . .

I looked at TLO late last night (central U.S. time) and noticed that a banned member was logged in. His status still says banned but evidently he can at least log in. Take a look at the list of users active in the last 24 hours, and you'll see a familiar name.

Then, not long afterward, this thread was started by a new user who had just created an account. Big yellow exclamation symbol on the thread, just to make sure it got everyone's attention.

Granted, the opinion expressed in the first post is the opposite of the banned member's opinion, but effective trolling does not require sincerity.
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Old 02-24-2014   #10
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Re: Against Antinatalism

Like its said before,if Ligotti were bad writer, nobody would care about hes worldviews and stuff said in TCATHR - me first,even if I mostly agree on things said there.But, in the same time if TCATHR were some generic new age book and Ligotti some random hippie guy that is far away from things in hes horror work - that would ruin whole thing for me.Relation between those two is very important.

And when it comes to all this antinatalism thing,I just think that humans just ain't no classy enough to do those "big and epic" things like goals of antinatalism,we are just not smart enough for any kinda of utopia - even one of extermination.
Like they say "all that man need is conformable shoes,tight pussy and hot place to take a crap" that kinda sums up our real ambition.So,lets just focus on those rare moments of unselfish creation,good literature for example !
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