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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #141
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Re: Twin Peaks - Series 3

Unsurprisingly I'm less than pleased with the resolution of the third series. I'll give some points contra Justin

- I agree that the series does not have to be neatly explanatory nor would I have expected it to be so; however, it does have to follow some kind of dream logic - the original series did this very well, but the revival did not, largely (I suspect) due to the excessive use of cut-ups and over-large cast for the number of episodes allotted. There is not enough of a connection, even an intuitive connection between the various plot-strands.

2. I don't think it's necessary to read Mike as lying about his repentance. I know that's been a prospective reading since Fire Walk with me, but it makes a lot of his actions unnecessary (why not say Bob is lying about his motives too?). The ambiguity with Mike is surely that his prime goal, or even interest in this world, is based around stopping Bob, and that the lives of individual humans are secondary to this. I assumed that he and Phillip Jeffries were responsible for all the hits on Dark Cooper and the fake co-ordinates.

Likewise I assume the ending is the result of a cosmic manipulation with the intention of defeating/thwarting Judy. Laura, a pure/powerful soul is sent back to be incarnated by the Fireman earlier on (we're just seeing how she ended up back in the Lodge). That this manipulation means that both Cooper and Laura are adrift in a time-line they don't understand which is irrelevant to the spirits. (the White Lodge will guide one towards what one ought to do not what one wants)

2.2. I don't think the relationship between the other Lodge spirits, the one's that aren't inhabiting spirits such as the boy and the Fireman, is so concrete - it's even implied that some of this aren't distinct egos and just have to represent themselves as such. I didn't think those conversations scenes with the spirits were specifically meant to represent the Black Lodge in exclusion to the White - thought it was more a shamanic counsel of the gods type thing.

2.3. I read the scene at the end of Fire Walk With Me differently. What Mike is demanding is Bob's own garmonbozia, the suffering and rage generated from this being unable to posses Laura. Mike wants to thwart and torment Bob glorying off his sufferings.

General issue with the ending - some of these might be to do with things I've missed so do fill them in.

- What ultimately was the point of the co-ordinate plot? We were given to assume that these co-ordinates that Briggs and Jeffries possessed and that Dark Cooper learnt of the day he left town were connected with the Judy entity. Why then did they just lead to a muted Diane - cast into the Lodge after Cooper's double learnt of the co-ordinates - who was surely of no further interest interest (why didn't Dark Cooper just kill her after he made the tulpa?)

- Was there ever any more reference to the hatching of the stone egg and the woodsman's magical broadcast?

Aesthetic issues

- The romantic plot with Diane seemed lazy, merely there so as Cooper could have a romantic plot direction. The whole reason he ventured into the Lodge in the first place - to save the woman he'd fallen in love (Annie) with - has not even alluded to. Hell, even Dark Cooper/Bob didn't bother with her, preferring to molest Audrey.

- The Cooper/Diane scene at the motel struck me as pointless Lost Highway referencing.

- The cut-up method meant that too many characters were introduced. The series lacked the loving indepth characterization the original had.

- The glove character as an ad hoc late addition who never received enough development. He should not have been the one to defeat Bob (open to having corrupt Sarah Palmer consume Bob and/or Richard Horne be the one who shots Dark Cooper)

- Some of the characters e.g. Big Ed and Norma, were brought in solely for fan service.

- The broadcast scene was one of the most impressive in the whole series yet had virtually no follow-up, even in an oblique sense.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #142
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Re: Twin Peaks - Series 3

Quote Originally Posted by GirlyGirlMask View Post
Is anyone else bothered by the implication that Sarah is a vessel for Judy and/or Mother? Her suffering in the original series was a reminder that Laura Palmer was more than a Prom Queen portrait-- she was a Mother's daughter. I hope that she wasn't some kind of demon and that Laura was only sent to her as a sacrifice to assuage her. Now, she did choose to do nothing about Leland's abuse of their daughter, so maybe that's what all of the Sarah horror show was about at the end of this season? Her guilt and responsibility there?
Yes, it would be gratuitous to have another possession going on. I agree with your interpretation of her warped behavior at the end. The way I saw it Sarah, like her daughter, was one of the 'gifted or the damned', one born with occult shamanic powers. Over the years her powers have developed just as her mental state has degenerated due to grief and guilt. It's only now - in 2017 - that her powers are beginning to manifest both sub-consciously and on impulse.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #143
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Re: Twin Peaks - Series 3

Quote Originally Posted by Evans View Post
2.3. I read the scene at the end of Fire Walk With Me differently. What Mike is demanding is Bob's own garmonbozia, the suffering and rage generated from this being unable to posses Laura. Mike wants to thwart and torment Bob glorying off his sufferings.
...except that Bob extracts the suffering from Leland (in the form of blood and the eventual creamed corn), not himself. Bob is clearly "harvesting" Leland in this scene and sharing the results with the other spirits. So it seems easier to believe that Mike is picking up the ill-gotten meal of misery that his familiar (Bob) prepared for him. As for his later actions, it's a two-spirit con: Mike claims to have gone straight when he's really still working with Bob the whole time. Or if he did try to reform, clearly chopping off his Arm wasn't enough, as it seems to be running the show (speaking in unison with him while physically holding onto him at the end of FWWM) and to still definitely be on good terms with Bob. Notice also that in Mike's final appearances in Episode 17, he's filmed in a way that makes him appear pretty creepy/threatening - surrounded by darkness as he knowingly recites the "Fire Walk With Me" poem. Rather dodgy. These are spirits who hang out in the Black Lodge, remember - it seems VERY suspicious that they'd go out of their way to help Cooper so much unless there was an ulterior motive, most likely one involving an eventual harvest of massive suffering, more than worth the minor blips of goodness along the way (such as tossing out another Dougie for the Vegas family - and who even knows how that one will eventually play out).

Quote Originally Posted by Evans View Post
Quote Originally Posted by GirlyGirlMask View Post
Is anyone else bothered by the implication that Sarah is a vessel for Judy and/or Mother? Her suffering in the original series was a reminder that Laura Palmer was more than a Prom Queen portrait-- she was a Mother's daughter. I hope that she wasn't some kind of demon and that Laura was only sent to her as a sacrifice to assuage her. Now, she did choose to do nothing about Leland's abuse of their daughter, so maybe that's what all of the Sarah horror show was about at the end of this season? Her guilt and responsibility there?
Yes, it would be gratuitous to have another possession going on. I agree with your interpretation of her warped behavior at the end. The way I saw it Sarah, like her daughter, was one of the 'gifted or the damned', one born with occult shamanic powers. Over the years her powers have developed just as her mental state has degenerated due to grief and guilt. It's only now - in 2017 - that her powers are beginning to manifest both sub-consciously and on impulse.
Whether it's Judy/Mother/Experiment or not, Sarah clearly seems to be inhabited by something bad. My interpretation of Episode 8 is that the young girl who swallows the flyfrog creature is a young Sarah - in other words, the seed for something bad (Judy, or just the failure to do anything about Leland's abuse) is planted in her early on. The Fireman may have conceived Laura's spirit as a response to the creation of Bob and the others, but the Judy forces seem to have ensnared that spirit in their web.

I'm also wondering if "Richard and Linda. Two birds with one stone" isn't in fact a warning that Cooper fails to understand - in other words, Judy is the one taking out the two birds (Cooper and Diane) by luring them into the Odessa reality at the end, from which they may not be able to return.

From a personal aesthetic standpoint, I'd also have preferred if the last hour didn't go SO Lost Highway/Mulholland Drive - I think there were more than enough narrative balls in the air that they could have brought in in an interesting way. But whatever, it's Lynch's toy chest and he can do what he wants with it.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #144
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Re: Twin Peaks - Series 3

Some have talked of retcons in the book and screen version, but I mostly don't remember what they are. Mark Frost's books seemed to have changed a bunch of things (apparently writing Annie out) but Lynch has said that Frost's version is not really the same as his.

So many storylines must have been abandoned because some of the cast (maybe even crew and settings) weren't there to realise it anymore. Lynch has been known to change things at the last minute and I wouldn't be surprised if some things just plain didn't make sense.
How would we ever know if Lynch completely screwed up the characters of the lodges?

Audrey's situation at the start of season 2 was retconned but that was plain to see.

I know it will never happen but I'd like Frost and Lynch to write books that follow their original story plan they had at the start.

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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #145
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Re: Twin Peaks - Series 3

I would have been satisfied with a "happy" ending and the resulting sense of closure. I was expecting major character deaths - none of which occurred.

But, I realize that would have swept the horror that was Laura Palmer's short life under the rug. That would have trivialized the trauma she endured by making it all go away with a magical reboot.

Ending the series the way it did leaves me wanting more. That's a good thing. This series woke me out of a major funk (brought on by 18+ months of unemployment and what I'm assuming is a lifelong depression that I can't get diagnosed due to budget cuts everywhere - sorry for the T MI). This series has invoked in me a much needed revulsion for crap tv and easy entertainment.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #146
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Re: Twin Peaks - Series 3

The final episode, to me, was a wonderful example of how to do cosmic, existential horror. It left me gutted and unmoored. The way the season was clipping along and seeming to come together made the sudden reversal even more potent.

Nausea and dread crept in during the final episode, and when it ended I had to sit and think for a while. I spent the next couple hours talking online with two of my buddies, both of whom felt much the same way, and we tried to find comfort and catharsis.

I went to sleep and had troubled dreams, most of which I don't remember, but I woke up the following morning full of terrible anxiety. Monday was not a pleasant day.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that it's been a while since a movie or show had such an effect on me. I'm sure some of it was my state of mind that day anyway, and not feeling too great to begin with, but I found the finale to be profoundly unsettling.

I think it was easy to hope for some more concrete resolution (yes, I know full well it's Lynch, but Twin Peaks is also Mark Frost) and I think many would have loved to see Cooper's odyssey end with him in peace, but man oh man was it hard watching Cooper's final episode go down like that.

I still keep thinking about the episode, several days later, and I am sort of hopeful they will come back to finish it out with a movie, although I don't think that will happen. I accept this ending the more I think about it, but I DO feel bad for the fans who really wanted and craved resolution, especially the ones who waited 25 years. I didn't expect a clean resolution myself, but I REALLY didn't expect the 180 the show did for the final episode.

Justin Steele

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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #147
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Re: Twin Peaks - Series 3

I loved Dougie, Janey-E, the Mitchums, Cole, the finale and other elements of S3. The parts that worked least well with me this season tended to be the subplots occurring within Twin Peaks, which tended to be overly nostalgic, insubstantial and have drifted far away from what intrigued me about the show in the first place. The finale bringing everything back to Laura was something I found immensely satisfying, and as I didn't really care much for what was going on with Shelly's daughter's boyfriend or even Hawk, Andy, Lucy, Audrey or whoever I don't mind their fates being left as dangling dreams.

All this complex literal discussion of a cosmogony doesn't ring true for me. In interviews Lynch has said he doesn't even understand basic Twin Peaks 'lore' elements like what 'the owls are not what they seem' means, so there is just no way he has mapped out some grand cosmic character arc for Mike. Without the infinite melancholy, mystery and beauty of Laura's death, Twin Peaks was destroyed. It happened when executives did it in early Season 2, and it happened when the hero did it in the show's final episode.

The parts I tuned in for were all well handled. S1 and FWwM are each perfect, and though I wouldn't consider S3 to be due to the amount of lesser material, episode eight and the finale alone justify it, let alone the sheer genius of Kyle as Dougie, which deserves every award going, including the Nobel peace prize.

'I believe in what the Germans term Ehrfurcht: reverence for things one cannot understand.'
― Robert Aickman, An Essay

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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #148
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Re: Twin Peaks - Series 3

I think this is my favorite piece on Twin Peaks: The Return

http://www.avclub.com/twin-peaks-gav...ocialMarketing
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #149
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Re: Twin Peaks - Series 3

I've seen this posted around. I vouch not for its validity, and it might be more of a coincidence or a big stretch, but it seems intriguing at least.

Quote
交代, pronounced jiāo dài (transliterated into "jowday", which then evolved into "judy"), is Chinese meaning 'to explain'. The ultimate negative force is explanation.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #150
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Re: Twin Peaks - Series 3

Quite a few interesting things here from this link in the AVClub article

The star of Mulholland Drive on Lynch and that gay sex scene | Dazed

Quote
OK, even if it’s not Laura Palmer, other clues connect Mulholland Drive to the world of Twin Peaks. In fact, Sherilyn Fenn confirmed on Twitter that in 1990, between seasons one and two, Lynch pitched her Mulholland Drive as an Audrey Horne spinoff.

While fellow cast members Naomi Watts, Patrick Fischler, Robert Forster, Brent Briscoe and Bonnie Aarons (the terrifying hobo) are in the upcoming season of Twin Peaks, Harring’s name is noticeably absent. “My agent didn’t want me to be one of the 200 cameos,” she explains. Instead, her agent held out for a more substantial role that didn’t materialise. She’ll still be watching, though. “Whether there’s 300, 400, 500 cameos, anything David touches is cinematic. The original Twin Peaks ending, with the old man, was hysterical.”
And learning elsewhere that Twin Peaks evolved from a Marilyn Monroe project.

Apparently Harring talked of a Mulholland Drive sequel once?

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