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Old 04-18-2017   #781
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by nihilsum View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech View Post
@ nihilsum

The point I was hinting at was that human beings have the tendency to shirk their responsibilities if they're placed in the right environment. In an environment in which everyone is assigned the same task, it's far more likely, at least initially, that some will work harder than others to achieve said task. If person A does twice the amount of work as person B while both are receiving the same in compensation, then person B is essentially stealing from person A. The surplus labor produced by person A is making up for the deficit created by person B.
Thanks for elaborating. You're absolutely right in saying that there will always be people who want to work less than others. I know plenty of people who are content with living off of welfare. Anyone's who has ever had a job knows there are people who would rather push off their work onto someone else, etc. My point that I was trying to make was that we can't necessarily let the fact that there will always be bad eggs who try to get by with doing less be the reason why we cut welfare programs and other things for people who actually need them.
Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech View Post
All of the great things you mentioned can be said about almost any economic system, regardless of whether it's capitalist, socialist, fascist, etc. We can't simply be content with saying "human rights" or "give the poor the ability to succeed." It's necessary to clearly define what we mean when we promote such things. Both liberals and conservatives agree that "human rights" and "poverty" are of the utmost importance, so it's not fair for one side to monopolize that kind of language. All that does is essentially destroy any form of rational debate; it effectively turns politics itself into a superficial game of good versus evil. If someone, whether they're liberal or conservative, adopts that kind of language, then they're guilty of promoting a fairy tale view of society.
Again, you're right that use of intentionally vague language can be very misleading and is a tactic that many politicians use (Trump is very guilty for this I believe). But I was listing off those things for the sake of brevity. By human rights I mean that liberals typically believe that people should not be denied rights because of their sexuality or gender (gays not getting served at restaurants, women getting paid less), or their race -it is not okay for police officers to target blacks, nor is it okay for Trump to target Muslims with his immigration ban. Most liberals also view healthcare as a human right - a person with serious illnesses should have access medical care they need without having to take on astronomical debt, no matter how poor they may be. It is clear that these are the human rights that both sides do not agree with.
Thanks for the clarification.

I wasn't necessarily thinking about welfare, but I can see where that's certainly relevant. While it's different from the scenario I created above, I happen to believe those who benefit the most from our (mostly) capitalist society aren't doing the majority of the necessary labor, so I'm actually more inclined to accuse them of "lounging around" than I am your standard welfare recipient. I believe, along with people such as Locke and Marx, that physical labor is what ultimately creates value in any economy. In any case, there's entitlement on both the top and the bottom, though I believe the top is benefiting the most. The whole American story about working your way up from the bottom, while perhaps true in the past, is now a blatant myth. The American work ethic has gone down considerably because the average worker now realizes that he or she is not seeing the fruits of their labor - it's going into the pockets of useless aristocrats who can't be bothered to get their hands dirty.

If we could perhaps give actual workers the tools needed to achieve self-sufficiency (from both their employers and the government), then we could more easily spot who's not actually pulling their weight.

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"
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Old 04-18-2017   #782
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Re: Trump

Stephen King is part of an America that has disappeared. "Salem's Lot" is an illustration, if you analyze it sociologically as well as creatively, of the dissipation of the 60's counterculture and the growth of vampires: those who feed off the system and destroy human community. I think people are surprised by his persistence. Guys like that, who have actually had to work gruelling jobs just to survive, do not need to be told what is where or who is doing what. They already know the deal: the boss takes your money and kicks it up to corporations--the real gangsters.


Why it should be so alarming in this age for one to state things so baldly is more alarming.
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Old 04-19-2017   #783
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
It was. Cannibal Cop summed it up nicely. King's smug, superior tone is emblematic of his peers and one of the chief reasons Trump won. He's merely perpetuating the problem while pretending to "explain" it.
It isn't. It really could've been a scene from a meeting in one of his small town novels. And thing is, he actually knows people like that and has been writing about them and their environment for decades now.

Anyway, reactions that piece produced in some TLOers just confirm its sad accuracy.
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Old 04-19-2017   #784
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Re: Trump

I think his caricatures do sound a lot like some of Trump's supporters but I just wasn't interested in seeing where that went and didn't have much faith that King could tell me something that hasn't been said countless times already.

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Old 04-19-2017   #785
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Re: Trump

King has injected politics into so many of his books that I stopped reading him years ago. He can't help it. He's a kneejerk liberal spouting the "isn't it obvious?!" politically correct position, and what's worse - it's nothing new, just the same old saw. Whether from the left or the right, I don't have much patience for politics when I read for entertainment.

Lucian pigeon-holed the letter solemnly in the receptacle lettered 'Barbarians.' ~ The Hill of Dreams by Arthur Machen
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Old 04-19-2017   #786
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by njhorror View Post
King has injected politics into so many of his books that I stopped reading him years ago. He can't help it. He's a kneejerk liberal spouting the "isn't it obvious?!" politically correct position, and what's worse - it's nothing new, just the same old saw. Whether from the left or the right, I don't have much patience for politics when I read for entertainment.
I feel the same, though I haven't read enough of King to be sensitive to any kind of liberal agenda on his end. I would love to see all art be depoliticized across the board completely. I'm sure there's some who would call me naive, seeing as how the very notion itself would be a difficult, if not impossible, undertaking.

Yet, it doesn't bother me on very rare occasions.

"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."

~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil"
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Old 04-19-2017   #787
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Re: Trump

Don't see why people get so bothered by political viewpoints in fiction. As long as it's not ham-handed I don't mind. What would fiction be like if you couldn't show nazis in a negative way?

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Old 04-19-2017   #788
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Robert Adam Gilmour View Post
What would fiction be like if you couldn't show nazis in a negative way?
Hogan's Heroes?
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Old 04-19-2017   #789
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Robert Adam Gilmour View Post
Don't see why people get so bothered by political viewpoints in fiction. As long as it's not ham-handed I don't mind. What would fiction be like if you couldn't show nazis in a negative way?
Because often this viewpoints are superficial and don't add anything to that fiction save for a 'dog whistle' to a certain side. They don't for instance say anything insightful about the position they are critiquing (my own preference here is to avoid all political labels and go for the ethical issues directly). The labeling of political positions in terms of parties encourages lazy thinking and thought terminating cliches.
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Old 04-19-2017   #790
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Re: Trump

Quote Originally Posted by Evans View Post
The labeling of political positions in terms of parties encourages lazy thinking and thought terminating cliches.
I haven't read a whole lot of recent stuff, could you give some examples of fiction writers who do this?

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