01-21-2018 | #61 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?
If it is true that death is concealed in life because life makes death inescapable, then the same dependency also exists the other way, thereby reversing the argument & bringing forth the positive from the negative. & i am also curious to know what the point is of using absolute terms like good and evil within the context of a worldview that apparently, by its own admission, has no standard by which to measure them. | |||||||||||
"What can a thing do with a thing, when it is a thing?"
-Shaykh Ibn 'Arabi |
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01-21-2018 | #62 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?
I still think Ligotti's CATHR is the best available text concerned (in part) with antinatalism. It's intelligently written, accessible, and entertaining. The simple fact is that Ligotti is much better at expressing himself than pretty much any academic. My only "complaint" is that he didn't cut the book in half and devote the rest of his creative energies to another collection of short stories. | |||||||||||
"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."
~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil" |
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01-21-2018 | #63 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?
"How can an antinatalist (who is also an atheist) explain how human beings are in a position to do what is against their very own nature? Furthermore, how can he or she account for a morality which is inherently hostile towards the closed physical system they belong to?" You don't even need to mention the problem concerning moral absolutes in order to see that there's a huge problem here. If human beings belong to a closed physical system, then where do they find the necessary resources that enable them to perform something so unnatural? Both Zapffe and Ligotti resort to obscure language when describing consciousness. They call consciousness "paradoxical," not just because it must conceal the truth in order to exist, but because it has the "supernatural" capacity to do so. One could simply ask how a naturalist (not just an antinatalist) could ever account for moral agency within a closed physical system. If I were a theist, I would drop that one into the lap of a naturalist. I digress. Basically, an antinatalist is committed to an anti-natural code of ethics while upholding a naturalistic worldview. There is a massive contradiction here. The only possible solution I can see to the problem is that an antinatalist either (1) abandon his or her atheism or (2) propose a different account of nature, one that is more sophisticated than what the sciences tell us. For now, I cling to antinatalism because of my own personal experience with this thing called "existence." As far as the "rational" foundations of my beliefs are concerned, I'm in the same position as a Christian who cannot explain the mysteries of the Holy Trinity. I'm somewhat okay with this. I believe every worldview eventually leads to some form of absurdity. I don't know what else to say, Ibrahim. I usually feel competent to address objections, but this one is beyond my limited powers. EDIT: I'm using the term "closed physical system" to refer to the naturalist and/or antinatalist's belief that the world is governed by only natural causal "laws" studied by modern science. | |||||||||||
"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."
~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil" |
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01-21-2018 | #64 | |||||||||||
Mannikin
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?
Unfortunately, most of the relevants figures of Antinatalism tends to be more obscure because of his existential background as you say it before. In fact, I think that's one of the reasons why this ideology remains buried below a dense cloud of social stigmas. Hopefully, Benatar's view is helping to reach the moral problematics and bringing them to many individuals as possible who doesn't share the obscure antinatalism opinion. There's so much misconception but everyday the ethical resolution seems to be growing within the mainstream. Here in Spain, more and more couples are choosing not to have children and adopting them instead. Also, the numbers of sterilizations has increased since the last five years. The principal issue here is still lying on the economic topic but I think that more people are getting concerned about the implications on having children. As I said a few comments before, Antinatalism can be both philantropic or misanthropic, but if one day Antinatalism becomes something significant at a great scale, it won't be by any of our beloved obscure thinkers but those who could demistify the extinction. | |||||||||||
Futility arises out of the grim suspicion that, behind the shroud of causality we drape over the world, there is only the indifference of what exists or doesn’t exist; whatever you do ultimately leads to no end, an irrevocable chasm between thought and world.-"Cosmic Pessimism" by Eugene Thacker
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02-13-2018 | #65 | |||||||||||
Mannikin
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?
The first chapter of this book can be read on the page below in English: First chapter of Porque te amo, NALo NascerA!s! | Misantropia e Melancolia. | |||||||||||
Thanks From: | Mr. Veech (02-13-2018) |
02-13-2018 | #66 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?
Is that really so difficult? Doesn't mere human intelligence account for the first part? As for the second, I'm not even sure it's true that antinatalism is "inherently hostile" to any physical system, but even so, I don't see the difficulty in trying to account for a morality which sees suffering (and particularly, the imposition of suffering on others) as an evil of sorts, or at least morally objectionable. Similarly, I'm not quite sure what to make of statements like this one: Maybe it's the "closed physical system" part that throws me, or the question of how you define moral agency. I'm also unsure of the need to account for this moral agency in the first place. These statements do not lead me to question antinatalism, but they do make me wonder a little about the anti-antinatalist position. Maybe in retrospect it never really made any sense to me, but I just bought into because, really, what choice was there? | |||||||||||
Who provideth for the raven his food?
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02-13-2018 | #67 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?
@ Cannibal Cop
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I assume that human "intelligence" (in this context) is the result of millions of years of genetic mutations. It seems highly unlikely that a morality which self-consciously opposes an organism's primary goal (reproduction) can develop within a closed physical system, a closed system in which survival and reproduction are simply given. The resources don't seem to be available, not without borrowing certain philosophical elements from an alternative source. It's certainly possible. But we're concerned with probability, not logical consistency. As far as moral agency is concerned, a closed physical system demands that there are only causal interactions determined by predetermined conditions. Now, one can argue that we don't know said conditions. However, a good scientist will declare that we are permitted to believe those conditions are always already in place. Moral agency implies a sort of radical contingency that defies the kind of determined system the scientist has in mind. In other words, an action's contingency must be a real possibility, not merely a possibility conceived by the human intellect in retrospect. The ontology behind conventional forms of naturalism is far too poor to account for the very nature of antinatalism. That's what my reason tells me. Of course, I'm entitled to abandon my reason. | |||||||||||
"In a less scientific age, he would have been a devil-worshipper, a partaker in the abominations of the Black Mass; or would have given himself to the study and practice of sorcery. His was a religious soul that had failed to find good in the scheme of things; and lacking it, was impelled to make of evil itself an object of secret reverence."
~ Clark Ashton Smith, "The Devotee of Evil" |
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02-14-2018 | #68 | |||||||||||
Mannikin
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?
Plenty of people have foregone having children, so it's difficult for me to see how anti-natalism is contrary to human nature. Even if we adopt the radical stance that all our behavior is due to evolution, there's nothing that stops us from evolving behaviors that could lead to extinction, whether these behaviors are engaging in nuclear war or embracing anti-natalism en masse. I've read somewhere or other that many zoologists believe pandas were going extinct long before humans because they don't breed fast enough to replenish their numbers from accidents, infertility, and non-human predation. Other animals, like Bohol tarsiers, spotted owls, and various lemurs, are so sensitive that relatively minor changes to their habitat stresses them to the point that they'll stop breeding and/or engage in suicidal behavior. Maybe anti-natalism is a perfectly natural reaction to changes in human habitat...
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02-14-2018 | #69 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?
Just for the sake of a distinction that I think might help discussion, I think there's a difference between antinatalism as a reaction to environment (as in the possible case of pandas and some humans) and antinatalism as a rational ethical system. To profess the latter one has to endorse some kind of rationality. Something that doesn't trickle down to popular discourse so much is that rationality has more of a tendency to commit one to the existence of immaterial entities. People with naturalist/materialist philosophical viewpoints therefore tend to describe themselves as empiricist rather than rationalist.
It's precisely in this area that many controversies arise. For instance, roughly speaking, empiricists will say: "We can't allow for the existence in themselves of propositions [true-or-false statements], as that contravenes a materialist view and is spooky. We must find some way to naturalise such statements." The rationalist will say: "Go ahead and try, but there's no way of coherently being able to distinguish true from false without independently existing propositions as truth-bearers." Almost no contemporary philosophers want to commit to 'spooky stuff', because, well, it's spooky, which is why there's a vast amount of hemming and hawing, and labyrinthine circumlocution, around this area. Even those who wish to retain the immaterial entities, in the main, don't want to endorse the existence of an immaterial realm, but for the most part see no choice but at least to endorse the entities, doing their best to minimise the immaterial realm in which such entities subsist (they'll probably, for instance, choose words like 'subsist', instead of 'exist'). | |||||||||||
“Absolutely candid, carefree, but straightforward speech becomes possible for the first time when one speaks of the highest." - Friedrich Schlegel
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02-14-2018 | #70 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?
And I think that's what it comes down to: either it makes intuitive sense to you or it doesn't, and I doubt that any argument, formal, or theological or moral or whatever, can (or even should) convince anyone otherwise. The primary goal, I think, is simply to let those who are sympathetic to this viewpoint know that it is a perfectly valid outlook to have, and that they should not feel coerced into rejecting it by that majority of those who, for whatever reason, are hostile to it. | |||||||||||
Who provideth for the raven his food?
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