Mysticism

SwansSoilMe/SwansSaveMe · 09-25-2006

I'll start with this:

"Only in freedom from mortal recoil is the individual capable of ecstasy under all conditions." --Da Free John (1978)

Mr. D. · 09-30-2006

I spent some time thinking before I added anything to this forum. The quote seems to validate the traditional idea of hermits seeking religious ecstacy by living alone (free from mortal recoil) in the desert for years to overcometheir personal demons and desires and find deep religious fulfillment. Mysticism has traditionally been an aspect of religions around the world. In some religions it has a central place (i.e., Bhuddism, Catholicism, Dionysian rites, etc.) though few were expected to take on the rigors of the discipline.
I'm not sure where mysticism fits into the world of Thomas Ligotti. It is a profoundly religious experience and that is just about the opposite of what Ligotti believes. For example, monks renounce both the world and themselves so that they may, on a deeper level, gain both. Most folks aren't interested in that kind of life, even though there can be great joy (as is evident in the works of Thomas Merton). In fact, in this world, a great many people don't even have those kinds of religious beliefs anymore, and the ones that do aren't interested in giving up their comforts.
Mysticism takes belief, a great deal of work, and a lot of time. It's much easier to game a mystic in a role-playing game than it is to spend years in the desert with just a simple faith. Our society isn't geared for that kind of thing. In the middle ages, when belief was widespead and life was even worse than it is now, the concept had a lot of popularity both in the East and West. I don't think it will ever die out, but it has been more central to life in the past. Look at Russian history.

SwansSoilMe/SwansSaveMe · 09-30-2006

Ligotti has written about a certain type of dark, fancied (speculative?) mysticism that he seems to glimpse. He also personally experimented for many years with meditation and spiritual techniques and philosophy. Most of us know he currently reads quite a bit into pessimistic Buddhism.

The quote above has nothing to do with the traditional renunciation of which you speak, though I can see why you put that out. Thanks for thinking about it. "Mortal recoil" is a term of Free John's for the contraction of the self, or the basic and primitive gesture of avoidance of relationship on every level. Fear of death. Nonacceptance...of mortality, even of life since life and death would be said to be in polar relation to each other.

unknown · 10-03-2006

I was pretty interested in Mysticism for a while. Shamans and the Otherworld and all that good stuff. I think it's that urge to return to primitive roots...to return to something that just seems...natural.

I can buy into the fact that if you have no mortal relations, you have no troubles. I know that's not the entire jist of the quote, but for my arguments' sake, I'll overlook this.

I'm reminded by a quote from the doom metal band, Katatonia (er they were doom metal):
"When you have no one, no one can hurt you"

SwansSoilMe/SwansSaveMe · 10-03-2006

To try to be clear: he's saying that it is the freedom from this tendency (recoil, self-contraction, avoidance) that results in the condition of ecstasy.

And incidentally, this could be the "ego-death" that TL has written and spoken about, including in his last interview; also what it seems U.G. Krishnamurti might have undergone.

ventriloquist · 10-04-2006

jeez, I haven't posted on here in ages... anyway, I thought this was a good topic by which to resurrect my TLO personage, because it also touches on why I've been absent: time spent in the proverbial desert (at least, the one between my own ears.)

To be honest, I don't get as much out of reading Ligotti or any other "pessimistic" authors these days; perhaps I've had the troll's shard removed from my eye? It seems as if my cynicism has been integrated into a more (dare I say?) expansive and sunnier view on things, in which it is somehow evident -- in my gut -- that my "true self" is not my "ego-self," but rather it is THE creative source... which isn't to say that I'm "enlightened" or anything of the kind, but that I can, more than ever, "participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world" (to paraphrase Joseph Campbell.)

Reading this thread also reminded me of a bit from Crowley's (er, Aiwass'?) Liber Legis:

Quote

29. For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union.

30. This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all.

Those words, I think, hold a good deal of wisdom regarding our place in the universe, and why we suffer. Perspective is everything.

Thoughts? Is anyone else on here as "mystically optimistic" as I am? :P

SwansSoilMe/SwansSaveMe · 10-04-2006

I used to be. It's good having your input here, V. Rather courageous of you, I think.

Spotbowserfido2 · 10-04-2006

Quote Originally Posted by ventriloquist";p=&quot

Thoughts? Is anyone else on here as "mystically optimistic" as I am?

Yes, ventriloquist, at times. I confess my fickle nature. On Monday, Wednesday, and Friday I want so hard to believe in (or embrace) this, that, or the other system of beliefs which dangles before me like a carrot from a stick. On Tuesday and Thursday, I do not give a rip at all. I will not speak of Saturday and Sunday. Even my wishy-washy approach to our common mystery of existence is subject to unpredictable delights and tragedies: the death of a loved one, winning big in the lottery, losing a job, making a new friend, etc. Each event shapes us. We either evolve or devolve into this, that, the other, or none of the above. What day of the week is it?

ventriloquist · 10-04-2006

Thanks for the replies, gents. I'm no less fickle about these things, in my own ways; I only wish it were so easy for me as to regiment my moods by the calendar! There are more dark days ahead, I'm sure, which will lead me to re-re-re-...-evaluate my beliefs. When it comes to these matters, though, I think a certain amount of fickleness (maybe a less pejorative term would be "flexibility") can be a boon. The gods are slippery mothers, always full of paradoxes and surprises, so why should we be any easier to peg? These days, I suppose, I'd say, "I believe in everything."

To get less personal and more on topic, I am inclined to see "freedom from mortal recoil" as being basically synonymous with "ego-death." I think we all slip in and out of such states as a matter of course. I wonder how much difference there is between a monk meditating on his mountaintop, on the cusp of the moment when the divine light bulb pops on (or off?), and the Average Joe on the job who gets "lost in his work." Is the difference no more than the monk's tendency to reflect more deeply on his experiences? Does it even matter?

In any case, I'll go out on a limb and associate ego-death with ecstasy. I've only had brief glimpses beyond the first few veils, but it's enough for me to intuit the sheer wonder and pleasure quintessential to consciousness. (and the universe is, indeed, Mental....)

It's an oft-used quote of Blake's, but I still like it: "If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is: Infinite."

SwansSoilMe/SwansSaveMe · 10-04-2006

In my own life, the past week has been characterized by trying to "figure the whole thing out." Again, of course. I suppose it's about time, and it's really not been that grueling; I can get honest a lot quicker than I used to. Yes, things changing (like jobs) often have a great deal to do with the changes in outlook. I was resisting the invention of a new paradigm for the past couple of years, figuring another one just wasn't where it's at. But now, who knows... Something to pass the time.

I've been mystically inclined since my early teens.

I want very much for all to be included -- or for my perception to clear enough to see that all is. I want the worlds of TL and those of my spiritual gurus to coexist. But then, they do already.