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Old 07-10-2016   #11
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Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

Quote Originally Posted by R.P.Dwyer View Post
Not sure why you're trying to conduct a philosophical traffic stop in a thread that is about the personal matter of how individual members cope.

Malone gave the obvious resonse in the original thread:

Quote Originally Posted by Malone View Post
As regards Zapffe, there's a disconnect between his absurdism and his ethics. If you truly believe the world to be absurd and all ethics to be contingent and local then there's no more imperative to prevent pain than there is to cause it. No one has established a timeless, universal morality and no one ever will.
Odd that you have ignored Malone's response while repeatedly demanding a response.

Maverick Philosopher's own position is theism, and if you're familiar with his blog you will probably remember that he has argued against the notion (held by some) that belief in God is rationally compulsory; instead he argues that belief in God is merely rationally defensible. I think the same is probably true of many philosophical world-views, including pessimism. One can rationally be a pessimist (there are obviously some grounds for it) without making overweening claims that the position must be held by any rational or honest person. Personally, I wish pessimism didn't seem as true to me as it does, but I wouldn't claim that it must necessarily seem true to every rational or honest person.

Has anyone in this thread based anything they have said on the particular contention of Zapffe's that Maverick Philosopher showed was self-contradictory? No. So step back, officer, and let the thread continue. Sheesh.
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Old 07-10-2016   #12
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Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

A couple of points:

1. The pessimism posts are implicitly rooted in a philosophical view. If someone presents a certain viewpoint, it is only fair that their position is exposed to criticism. Such is the way of intellectual discourse, and, indeed, intellectual progress.

2. You cite Malone's reply. You must have poor reading comprehension. Malone was re-formulating The Maverick Philosopher's position!

3. You mention The Maverick Philosopher's theism. Thats a red herring argument. It is irrelevant to the topic.

4. You seem to seek a 'safe space' online, where you seek a online place where you are not made uncomfortable.
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Old 07-10-2016   #13
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Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

Quote Originally Posted by R.P.Dwyer View Post
1. The pessimism posts are implicitly rooted in a philosophical view. If someone presents a certain viewpoint, it is only fair that their position is exposed to criticism. Such is the way of intellectual discourse, and, indeed, intellectual progress.
However, I started this thread with the intention of starting a personal dialogue with TLOers about how they manage to cling to life despite how nightmarish it is, not necessarily to scrutinize pessimism as a viable and consistent position.

Quote
2. You cite Malone's reply. You must have poor reading comprehension. Malone was re-formulating The Maverick Philosopher's position!
How?

Quote
3. You mention The Maverick Philosopher's theism. Thats a red herring argument. It is irrelevant to the topic.
No more than your post being irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

Quote
4. You seem to seek a 'safe space' online, where you seek a online place where you are not made uncomfortable.
Some things posted on TLO make me uncomfortable at times, and I know things I've posted in the past have made other TLOers uncomfortable as well. Pretty much anything is free game here except personal abuse. So I'm curious how TLO fits your criteria of your "safe space" boogeymen, or how you came to the conclusion gveranon wants TLO to be one of these boogeyman "safe spaces".

This is my life. This is my damnation. This is my only regret--that I ever was born.

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Old 07-10-2016   #14
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Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

Quote Originally Posted by R.P.Dwyer View Post
1. The pessimism posts are implicitly rooted in a philosophical view. If someone presents a certain viewpoint, it is only fair that their position is exposed to criticism. Such is the way of intellectual discourse, and, indeed, intellectual progress.
In the "Maverick Philosopher on Zapffe" thread you made the following arbitrary demand:

Quote Originally Posted by R.P.Dwyer View Post
I think that before anyone posts some pessimistic philosophy, they ought to deal with the arguments presented by the Maverick Philosopher first.
Your demand is arbitrary because the particular contention of Zapffe's that Maverick Philosopher exploded is not entailed in everything that anyone might write about pessimism (far from it). It is certainly not entailed in personal posts about how people cope.

And you only reiterated your arbitrary demand in this personal thread after no one replied to you in the other thread.

You appear to think that Maverick Philosopher's post amounts to a refutation of pessimism (it doesn't), and now you're running around TLO brandishing it at anyone who mentions pessimism. Ridiculous.

Quote Originally Posted by R.P.Dwyer View Post
2. You cite Malone's reply. You must have poor reading comprehension. Malone was re-formulating The Maverick Philosopher's position!
Let me help you with your reading comprehension. In his first sentence, Malone restates Maverick Philosopher's argument in a way that indicates he agrees with it. Indication of agreement is a response. In his second sentence, Malone moves beyond Maverick Philosopher's argument and gives his own opinion that "No one has established a timeless, universal morality and no one ever will." In context, this is Malone's admission that pessimism/antinatalism is not a timeless, universal morality. Again, this is a response. Please recognize responses when you see them.


Quote Originally Posted by R.P.Dwyer View Post
3. You mention The Maverick Philosopher's theism. Thats a red herring argument. It is irrelevant to the topic.
I mentioned Maverick Philosopher's theism (which I respect) only to bring up how he deals with the question of whether theism is rationally compulsory or just rationally defensible. In the part of my paragraph which you ignored, I clearly applied Maverick Philosopher's thinking on this (which is, again, the only reason I brought it up) to pessimism, saying that I think pessimism is rationally defensible but not rationally compulsory. That's not a red herring; it's a response that is to the point. Again, please recognize a response when you see it.

Quote Originally Posted by R.P.Dwyer View Post
4. You seem to seek a 'safe space' online, where you seek a online place where you are not made uncomfortable.
TLO isn't and shouldn't be a "safe space." I'm just irritated by arbitrary demands and aggressive dumbness (brandishing a good argument in a clueless way is aggressive dumbness). But I've been on the internet long enough to know that there is no end to such things. So please continue!
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Old 07-10-2016   #15
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Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

Quote Originally Posted by R.P.Dwyer View Post
4. You seem to seek a 'safe space' online, where you seek a online place where you are not made uncomfortable.
I'm not sure a thread asking why people don't give into the call to top themselves is necessarily the proper place to be a pointlessly bellicose Internet Person. People aren't disagreeing with your choice to air your ideas. They're irritated by your needless belligerence.

I struggled with obsessive suicidal thoughts daily (and tried earnestly once) until I started this regime of medication. Now it's only every other day.

'I believe in what the Germans term Ehrfurcht: reverence for things one cannot understand.'
― Robert Aickman, An Essay
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Old 07-10-2016   #16
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Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

Arts, sciences, ideas, humor, and obligations to others are what keep me going.

HPL also said something that made a lot of sense to me years ago. I wish I could remember the exact passage. It had something to do with curiosity and the fact that you are only here a fleeting amount of time and dead for eternity thereafter.

I am almost sure that I will end up committing suicide due to increasingly ill health. I can't stand the thought of being tortured in the hospital anymore. The last time I was in I woke up and found myself stapled together from my sternum to below my waist. The pain is just getting to be too much.

Plus it seems that my perception of pain in the world is growing more acute and the memories of it rarely fade. I am constantly awakened by nightmares and horrible recollections.

My suicide would certainly have nothing to do with negative philosophy or horror stories. Ligotti's work has always been something that I enthusiastically look forward to and enjoy immensely. (Which probably means that I am too dense to fully appreciate the implications of what he is saying. Oh, well...)

Last edited by bendk; 07-17-2016 at 03:03 AM..
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Old 07-11-2016   #17
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Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

There are still plenty of things that I would like to do, namely with travel, writing, research, love, and music. If I were to commit suicide (most likely), I must at least attempt these beforehand.

I'm not opposed to letting nature take its course, but I want to be as comfortable as I can with the circumstances of my death.

This is my life. This is my damnation. This is my only regret--that I ever was born.

-- Swans, "Beautiful Child"
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Old 07-11-2016   #18
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Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

I'm not a pessimist or an optimist but I want to live as long as possible if my health is okay, I like the idea of knowing what happens at the end of this century.

I often thought of suicide whenever I was in a difficult situation but it was never serious and thankfully that stopped a couple of years ago because it felt very immature.

I feel like I nearly jumped to my death three years ago but it was probably OCD fooling me.

Can anyone really say if their pain in living outweighs their grieving families' pain? You don't know how hard it will hit them.

I suspect in a few decades, many more will consider suicide because their standard of living has gotten to a low they never imagined possible.

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Old 07-11-2016   #19
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Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

"I suspect in a few decades, many more will consider suicide because their standard of living has gotten to a low they never imagined possible."

Quite possible. Never underestimate the power of the (lack of) money. If it gets to the point that I'm doddering about some medicaid ward I hope I still have the means to off myself.

Besides that, thoughts of suicide are a constant companion, immature or not. Yes, it probably reflects a lack of mature problem solving skills on my part. In my own defense, however, let me say that I spent years trying to hone said skills, and at the end of the road I came to this conclusion: People aren't worth it. Avoid.

What life feels like now is "enough already!" Here's a clue: Life is a series of setbacks, with a few stolen happy moments. I apologize to those who are still nurtured by books, music, cinema - whatever - as I was. They meant the world to me, and I still love them.

But.......it now appears to me that everything is losing substance, that even works of genius can't satisfy against the imminent void. The things that are supposed to fill your adult life, i.e. work, family, etc. are as illusory as everything else. The best you can do is be as comfortable as you can, try not to act like an asshole like 99.9% of humanity does (as Lemmy said, "manners are free."), and anticipate the reaper. I see nothing wrong with entertaining thoughts of death when things are horrible. I also agree that hurting those few people that are close to me is not a happy thing and is probably the principle reason I'm still here.

Everything seems like a horribly wearisome struggle.

Put your faith in God; he won't expect you.
Put your faith in death, because it's free.
If you believe in nothing, honey, it believes in you.
-Robyn Hitchcock
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Old 07-11-2016   #20
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Re: Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

Quote Originally Posted by teguififthzeal View Post
Every pessimist who is in a relatively stable frame of mind knows that suicide has a horrible/traumatizing effects on everyone, because most of them have had friends who have committed suicide.

I wouldn't feel right doing it. And it's against the law.
Not true. Sure it affects the people around you in a very bad way, but the pessimist philosopher Julio Cabrera argues that suicide benefits the majority of people (and animals). He tries to demonstrate that suicide leaves more room for other living beings. He argues that to be a live is (among other things) a struggle and a fight against failure, so people are morally disqualified. Any attempt at an ethical life in a meaningfull sense (Kant's non-manipulation, Aristotelian Virtue Ethics, Bentham's positive utilitarianism) is systematically blocked by life's structural badness. His project 'Negative Ethics' is a difficult read but very instructive.

So here is my take on it. Why should any particular people (my close family) be given special priority? I don't care about them in particular when I am dead, obviously. In short, this is more about your own feeling as you admit, rather than concern about a better world.

Last edited by Benatarian; 07-11-2016 at 02:12 PM..
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