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Old 03-05-2009   #1
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Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo


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Old 03-05-2009   #2
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

I've been listening to this argument for years. There are also occultists working with what is called anti-cosmic current, in an attempt to undo what the demiurge has done and reach a state of 'true freedom' in uncreation, a state without limitation. They believe we are trapped here by a sadistic and egotistical force of some sort.
Plenty of people think people suck. Thinking humans suck is a time honored tradition. I suck and you suck. You know it and I know it.
So forgive me if this 'antinatalism' doesn't sound 'far out'. If you think about anything, it sounds like the same old ego gratification crap packaged as taboo.
Poor humans. Material existence is so darn hard. Why do we even have chairs? What is it worth and what does it mean? It's nothing, but torture! Why go on? Woe is me! Woe is me.
I do like, though, how he plays on our compassion for children and parents. No one wants to be in pain or see their children in pain. But he makes an awful lot of assumptions. After all, if it doesn't matter, than what's the difference?
Not that I am in any way against making a stand, but this doesn't seem like a winning battle to me. Not that life does, but at least there's stuff to do. Sounds like if these guys get their way, there won't be anything to do.
Unless, of course, you should actually achieve 'godhood'. In which case, you could always trap unlimited potential in a slow vibrational state and spin it for a while. It makes a nice puppet show.
But then, I'm biased. I've already been born. I'm a father. I like Earth. I enjoy being here. I enjoy the illusion and look to it as an encrypted mystery that I must spend my time solving, even if in the end there will be no reward or punishment or even an answer. I enjoy the exploration and the sense of discovery. I have been to 'alien' lands beyond description and experienced states as close to non-existence as one can and still live. I am a user of anti-cosmic current, but only to shake things up. And I love to create! To draw forms out of the ether and make them 'solid'! I make these things my business.
In my opinion, people like the gentleman who made this little seminar, are just bored because they've bought the real lie. Life is simple, Death is easy and there is no such thing as Magic.
The truth as I have found it, so far, however, seems just the opposite. Nothing is simple, Nothing is easy and there is no such thing as no such thing.
You can go home if you want, but I think I'll stay a while. This just might be the party that brings the house down.
Thanks for posting this. It gave me something to rant about during my bout of insomnia.


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Old 03-05-2009   #3
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

I liked the Black Ferris' reply here, but I must say, I also agree with most of what was said in the first clip (I haven't listened to the second one yet, but I think I get the gist). My own personal take on this is that I simply cannot understand why people have children, unless they do it by default and unthinkingly, because everyone does. In other words, I can't understand why any thinking and sensitive person would inflict life self-awareness on anyone. No one has yet come up with a convincing way of turning life from a horror into the kind of dream we are promised as children but never, ever actually get. To me there seems to be absolutely no possible excuse for perpetuating life. Having said that, I think that this clip becomes absurd in the same way that the Church of Euthanasia and so on are absurd, because there's no point in crusading for non-existence, because the premise of the whole crusade is pointlessness itself. I kind of feel like this sort of thing is almost an ultimatum to the universe - give us want we want or we're "outta here". Which, actually, is an idea that makes me smile. I quite like it, really. But it is absurd. And calling yourself an anitnatalist is absurd, and having websites about it is absurd. If existence is evil and pointless then nothing matters anyway, and we might as well watch while it plays itself out. But, personally, I still could never bring myself to perpetuate this nightmare, so... I suppose I tread a circle on this one. Here's a related link: Population control. s Blog I might put the antinatalist clips on my blog, actually. I feel kindly disposed towards them.

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Old 03-05-2009   #4
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Quote Originally Posted by The Black Ferris View Post
Plenty of people think people suck. Thinking humans suck is a time honored tradition. I suck and you suck. You know it and I know it.
References to sucking seem strangely apt on a thread with natal in its title. It is, after all, what infants do.

I wonder when and why suck came to be used as a verb meaning to be bad. I'm sure that it had not assumed this meaning when I was young. The very fact of a verb meaning to be bad seems strange. The ancient Egyptian language had numerous adjective verbs of this kind, but I don't believe that they're common in English. (By adjective verb, I mean verbs meaning to be [an adjective].)

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Old 03-05-2009   #5
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

I guess I still don't get it. Maybe it's because I am a Dollmaker.
So, you guys are saying that if you were a 'CREATOR BEING' floating along as the endless void, you wouldn't make a place like this?
"Well, uh... I have such compassion for unlimited potential so, I just don't wanna trap it, O.K.?"
What sort of existence would be acceptable to a puppet? What sort of world would you be happy to bring a child into?
I know if my child were still floating out there on the 'other side', I'd still grab him and say, "Hey, man, you gotta check this place out!"
Perhaps, the Earth is the true entity and we fool ourselves into thinking we are more than a process toward her evolutionary goal. This is why I can never quite think of humans as any sort of true evil. Nor can I worry much about 'saving the planet'. Seriously? Have you seen this thing? Earth will have what it wants. We all have our part to play. Even in killing yourself, you are only being asked to return what did not belong to you so that it may be used for raw material. Nightmare, maybe, but who's?
I guess I'm just a creator being at heart. But I can tell you that if I had created this universe, I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ####ING AROUND!
MONDAY MORNING, 8 'O CLOCK, FIERY BALLS OF GAS, #### SMASHING INTO OTHER ####, EXPLORERS, ARTISTS, SCIENTISTS, INTERDIMENSIONAL TRAVEL... (neat, but... little boring.. something's missing... hmm... what could it be? Oh I know!) MONSTERS!
I don't know, maybe you guys are right. Maybe non existence is more original.

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Old 03-05-2009   #6
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

I think suck is another surfing term. Like getting sucked under a totally tubular wave. "Dude! That SUCKS!"
Then again, "go suck an egg"? When? Why? Eh...
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Old 03-05-2009   #7
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Acclaimed Kabbalah scholar Gershom Scholem discussing the cosmology of
controversial 17th-century kabbalist Nathan of Gaza:

"From the beginning there are in Ein-Sof two kinds of light or
aspects- the "thoughtful light" and "the thoughtless light." The first
comprises all that is focused on the purpose of creation. But in the
infinite wealth of Ein-Sof there are forces or principles which are
not aimed at creation and whose sole purpose is to remain what they are and stay where they are. They are "thoughtless" in the sense that they are devoid of any idea directed to creation...What is called the power of evil, the kelippah is in the last resort rooted in the noncreative light in God himself. The duality of form and matter takes on a new aspect: both are grounded in Ein-Sof. The thoughtless light is not evil in itself but takes on this aspect because it is opposed to the existence of anything but Ein-Sof and therefore is set on destroying the structures produced by the thoughtful light...The whole process of creation proceeds therefore through a dialectic between the two lights; in other words, through a dialectic rooted in the very being of Ein-Sof."
-Gershom Scholem, from "Kabbalah" by Gershom Scholem, pp. 270
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Old 03-06-2009   #8
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Quote Originally Posted by The Black Ferris View Post
I know if my child were still floating out there on the 'other side', I'd still grab him and say, "Hey, man, you gotta check this place out!"
You are arguing from false premises. Non-existence is, by definition, not a mode of being and certainly not a place, which is exactly why it is always better than being "smothered with the burdensome overcoat of matter", as Ligotti put it.

Edit: I misquoted. My apologies to Mr L.

Last edited by Viva June; 03-09-2009 at 10:08 AM..
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Old 03-06-2009   #9
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Quote Originally Posted by Viva June View Post
You are arguing from false premises. Non-existence is, by definition, not a mode of being and certainly not a place, which is exactly why it is always better than being "smattered with the burdensome overcoat of matter", as Ligotti put it.
I agree that non-existence is neither a place nor a mode of being. But I fail to see why that makes non-existence better than being.

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Old 03-06-2009   #10
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Re: Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo

Exactly the point. If it is being said that 'no one chooses this' than we first have to establish that there is something in nothingness to bring into somethingness. Obviously this might not be the case, but if it were, how would you ask? What would the frame of reference be? How could you know whether it would be favorable over non-existence?
Again, this argument is absurd. I love it, but that doesn't change the facts.
I gladly shoulder the burdens of certain realities, even if I can't be trusted to stick to the common story. I am in no way opposed however, to others laying down their burden.
But this whole thing is much like a human telling a martian that Earth is the best! A two dimensional creature doesn't understand depth, only length and height. It has no frame of reference.
For that matter, pertaining to this conversation, neither do we.

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