THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK
Go Back   THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK > Miscellanea > Off Topic
Home Forums Content Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Contagion Members Media Diversion Info Register
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes Translate
Old 02-23-2012   #1
soulless
Mannikin
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 6
Quotes: 0
Points: 2,721, Level: 33 Points: 2,721, Level: 33 Points: 2,721, Level: 33
Level up: 81% Level up: 81% Level up: 81%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
The Ballad of Genesis and Lady Jaye

Next month Genesis P Orridge is appearing in my home town for the screening of The Ballad of Genesis and Lady Jaye. Has anyone seen it so far?
For those who don’t know it’s a documentary about Genesis and his lover who fused identities. Whenever I hear about this love story it creeps me out (in all the best ways). I’m looking forward to this documentary.
soulless is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
Mr. D. (03-15-2012)
Old 03-05-2012   #2
soulless
Mannikin
Threadstarter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 6
Quotes: 0
Points: 2,721, Level: 33 Points: 2,721, Level: 33 Points: 2,721, Level: 33
Level up: 81% Level up: 81% Level up: 81%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: The Ballad of Genesis and Lady Jaye

Saw the film last night. Since as no one has responded, I may as well offer my thought on it for anyone who’s interested.

It was disappointing. This film was less of an insight into their relationship and more of a biography of Genesis. The filmmaker painted the relationship through Gen’s perspective, who narrates the whole thing. Despite the abundant footage of Lady Jaye you barely hear her voice. There is a lot of boring and ugly footage of Genesis trying to act kooky, prancing around and bragging about how seminal TG were etc etc.
The Q&A which followed revealed how conceited Genesis is, and how incoherent her notions of her own art actually were, both the music and the performance art with lady Jaye. In the documentary she describes Lady Jaye’s project as subverting gender stereotypes to show that a woman doesn’t have to be what society says she is. Then during the Q&A Genesis took a dump all over this idea by describing gender roles in very narrow and conventional ways. For instance, Genesis’s experimentation with estrogen causing her to ‘cry and sook’ all the time, and Lady Jaye’s consumption of testosterone making her a less emotional, less sympathetic person.
The Q&A enabled further opportunities for Genesis to spin a whole lot of ill-informed bull#### that the crowd somehow found enlightening due to the sporadic references to Buddhism and the anti-establishment sentiment.

I'd like to know what other people thought of the documentary.
soulless is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Mr. D. (03-15-2012), sundog (03-05-2012)
Old 03-05-2012   #3
NealJansons's Avatar
NealJansons
Acolyte
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 68
Quotes: 0
Points: 2,536, Level: 32 Points: 2,536, Level: 32 Points: 2,536, Level: 32
Level up: 58% Level up: 58% Level up: 58%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: The Ballad of Genesis and Lady Jaye

Quote Originally Posted by soulless View Post
Saw the film last night. Since as no one has responded, I may as well offer my thought on it for anyone who’s interested.

It was disappointing. This film was less of an insight into their relationship and more of a biography of Genesis. The filmmaker painted the relationship through Gen’s perspective, who narrates the whole thing. Despite the abundant footage of Lady Jaye you barely hear her voice. There is a lot of boring and ugly footage of Genesis trying to act kooky, prancing around and bragging about how seminal TG were etc etc.
The Q&A which followed revealed how conceited Genesis is, and how incoherent her notions of her own art actually were, both the music and the performance art with lady Jaye. In the documentary she describes Lady Jaye’s project as subverting gender stereotypes to show that a woman doesn’t have to be what society says she is. Then during the Q&A Genesis took a dump all over this idea by describing gender roles in very narrow and conventional ways. For instance, Genesis’s experimentation with estrogen causing her to ‘cry and sook’ all the time, and Lady Jaye’s consumption of testosterone making her a less emotional, less sympathetic person.
The Q&A enabled further opportunities for Genesis to spin a whole lot of ill-informed bull#### that the crowd somehow found enlightening due to the sporadic references to Buddhism and the anti-establishment sentiment.

I'd like to know what other people thought of the documentary.
That's interesting. While I'm all for the acknowledgement of the social construction of gender, I think that we need to accept facts when they hit us over the head. Living in both Santa Cruz and now in the Bay Area of California, I have known several transexuals who have done the hormone thing, and all of them report exactly that sort of thing, to the point where the partner of one trans women (who was in the process of doing the hormone therapy in preparation for a surgical sex-change to a man) begged her/him to stop doing the hormones because they "made her an aggressive asshole".

Even with the toy studies, children as young as nine-months will choose the toys classically associated with their genders. The "it's all nurture" brigade keep trying to say that it's still the fault of socialization, but doing studies too much earlier than that is almost impossible...infants often don't have the physical coordination yet to show choices in an obvious way.

So while I think it's important to allow people to express themselves in any number of ways, including through identifying as another gender, that does not require us to ignore the fact that certain hormones do correlate with certain tendencies within behavior. I don't know why that should be controversial...we are able to take drugs and medicine is able to function based on an understanding of biochemistry; it's not surprising that certain chemicals in our bodies function in specific ways, nor is it surprising that the chemicals associated with secondary sexual expression (breasts, body hair, etc) would possess a behavioral component.

I used to be of the "nurture" school myself, but continued interest and experience has forced me into accepting more of a balance between nurture and nature. Gender seems to begin in the body and end in society, with tendencies coming from biology and the ways those tendencies manifest being decided by sociology and psychology.

However, I'm a strong determinist...I believe our thoughts/feelings/behaviors are not exactly chosen by us, but are the outcomes of the same sorts of standard cause and effect chains that exist everywhere else in nature. Our sense of choice is just part of the process of cause evaluation. We can't pick the thoughts we are going to think or feelings we are going to feel, we can't choose to prefer vanilla to chocolate or easy listening to extreme metal. We can choose to add new causes to our life experiences and remove others, which is where some "choice" does kick in, but these choices are still conditioned by causes...some set of causes still gave rise to the effect of us choosing to explore experimental jazz after talking to someone who was really into it, etc. This philosophical stance pretty much requires me to acknowledge that choices related to gender are the effects of causes in the world and in the body, rather than some sort of unconditioned choice (which seems incoherent to me...a choice unconditioned in any way would be random, but randomness seems to exclude our intuitive understanding of what "choice" means).

Of course, I'm open to new data, and will change my opinion on the issue if new data warrants it.

I'm going to check out the documentary when I can find it somewhere. I have mixed feelings on Genesis P-Orridge anyway, but I do like TG.

"Art should be a monster which casts servile minds into terror." - Tristan Tzara.
NealJansons is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Mr. D. (03-15-2012), sundog (03-05-2012)
Old 03-05-2012   #4
Karnos's Avatar
Karnos
Chymist
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 418
Quotes: 0
Points: 16,721, Level: 89 Points: 16,721, Level: 89 Points: 16,721, Level: 89
Level up: 35% Level up: 35% Level up: 35%
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
Re: The Ballad of Genesis and Lady Jaye

Genesis is one curious character. I can't help to laugh when I think that the same skinny young guy who back in the mid/late 70's was dressed in Nazi uniforms, made really innovative music about cruelty and rape and who was friends with the likes of Boyd Rice...would eventually become a fat woman!

To be honest I've never been too much of a fan of TG and PTV, I like more the people who were involved one way or another with Genesis (Boyd Rice, David Tibet, "Sleazy" Christopherson, etc) although I am interested in his antics.

Anyway, people die...
-Current 93


I am simply an accident. Why take it all so seriously?
-Emil Cioran
Karnos is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Mr. D. (03-15-2012), sundog (03-06-2012)
Old 03-08-2012   #5
soulless
Mannikin
Threadstarter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 6
Quotes: 0
Points: 2,721, Level: 33 Points: 2,721, Level: 33 Points: 2,721, Level: 33
Level up: 81% Level up: 81% Level up: 81%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: The Ballad of Genesis and Lady Jaye

Neal,



A friend of mine also did hormone treatments, and like you said about your friends, felt that they had become more feminine i.e. emotional or whatever. I don’t buy it. First of all, I don’t think that, statistically, the women I know are more emotional than the men I know. Secondly, taking hormone treatments would put stress on the body and make a person very emotional, aggressive, unstable, or just changed from normal. Furthermore, although I’m not a scientist I know that hormones don’t determine gender traits. They do contribute but it’s more complicated than testosterone = man; estrogen = woman. We all have both male and female sex hormones. I know a very classically beautiful and healthy girl who looks very feminine who had testosterone levels above the average man.

Regardless of whether hormones have a part to play in gendered behavior, I believe that our personalities are conditioned and hardly biologically determined. In other words the ‘nurture’ element surely overrides the ‘nature’ element, right? We’re not in thrall to our instincts, our minds are powerful and we learn behavior that is counter-instinctive.

So when I was criticizing Genesis as contradicting the whole subvert-gender-roles-art, what I meant to say was that she was quick to point to damaging stereotypes when explaining certain experience. Specifically, the results of her hormone treatment experiment were predetermined by the very societal stereotypes Genesis professed to defy. Do you see that or is it just me?

Would like to know what you think of the film.
soulless is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
Mr. D. (03-15-2012)
Old 03-09-2012   #6
NealJansons's Avatar
NealJansons
Acolyte
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 68
Quotes: 0
Points: 2,536, Level: 32 Points: 2,536, Level: 32 Points: 2,536, Level: 32
Level up: 58% Level up: 58% Level up: 58%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: The Ballad of Genesis and Lady Jaye

Quote Originally Posted by soulless View Post
Neal,



A friend of mine also did hormone treatments, and like you said about your friends, felt that they had become more feminine i.e. emotional or whatever. I don’t buy it. First of all, I don’t think that, statistically, the women I know are more emotional than the men I know. Secondly, taking hormone treatments would put stress on the body and make a person very emotional, aggressive, unstable, or just changed from normal. Furthermore, although I’m not a scientist I know that hormones don’t determine gender traits. They do contribute but it’s more complicated than testosterone = man; estrogen = woman. We all have both male and female sex hormones. I know a very classically beautiful and healthy girl who looks very feminine who had testosterone levels above the average man.

Regardless of whether hormones have a part to play in gendered behavior, I believe that our personalities are conditioned and hardly biologically determined. In other words the ‘nurture’ element surely overrides the ‘nature’ element, right? We’re not in thrall to our instincts, our minds are powerful and we learn behavior that is counter-instinctive.

So when I was criticizing Genesis as contradicting the whole subvert-gender-roles-art, what I meant to say was that she was quick to point to damaging stereotypes when explaining certain experience. Specifically, the results of her hormone treatment experiment were predetermined by the very societal stereotypes Genesis professed to defy. Do you see that or is it just me?

Would like to know what you think of the film.
I don't see any reason to gainsay the actual testimony of actual people who have had the actual experiences of taking the associated hormone therapy. It is also entirely consistent with the entire reason they are taking the hormone therapy in the first place i.e. because certain balances of hormones are associated with each basic gender. Of course it's more complex than testosterone=male and estrogen=female, it's about the balance of several hormones, and the doctors who are performing this therapy and research know exactly how complicated it is, and act accordingly. If changing those balances didn't have the associated gender variations on a physical basis, there would be no reason for the people seeking sex-change to use the hormone treatments.

No, I don't think, somehow, nurture rules the day. Looking around at the world, almost every behavior I witness can be cashed out in terms of variations on instinctual behavior. Sure, social training can shift things, and there are always sports and mutations, but for the most part, we are a di-sexual species and our differentiation of sexual characteristics, just like all of our other physical characteristics, is a function of genetic structure and that structure's instantiation through cellular differentiation. Hormones are one of the things that govern that process. Genetics matters far more than socialization because the socialization is a manifestation of possibilities inherent in the genetics. Our body is the prerequisite for the social, and predates it. We existed as bodies long before we existed as social beings in the complex patterns we view today.

I see a lot of reasons people feel like they need to believe that something special and non-animal, not cashed out in terms of biology, chemistry, and physics, but I don't see any reason to believe that. We do engage in behavior that is counter-intuitive, but I don't think that has anything to with whether that behavior is non-physically based. Our species is social, our species is sentient, but all of that is still because of our bodies and brains. We think thoughts, feel feelings, and are motivated by arrangements of our physical bodies. The easiest way to know this is true is change that arrangement in some way and then see the corresponding changes in mind. People with brain damage, or damage to their ability to produce certain hormones properly, show changes in behavior in predictable ways. That's why we're able to make things like psycho-active drugs that cause changes in mood. As a life-long drug user, I can tell you: it works.

I think engaging in the particular arrangement of the brain and body that corresponds to "self-control in the face of instinct" is as variable a capacity as hand-eye coordination. Some people, like myself, are highly abstract and engage in a lot of consideration before acting on an impulse, while many others tend to act on impulse far more readily. However, to whatever degree that is so, it no less progresses from a cause that is the state of my brain and body, and that brain and body proceed to be influenced by any number of sources, including the social, but the body itself is the basis for that process. Without a body, there is no object for a discussion of mind or a gendered self, and the only possibilities that exist for that self are the ones present in the body.

As for your friend with the high testosterone...of course she was more feminine than normal. Based on our chromosomes, our cells can only process so much of each hormone. When we start to get too much of one, our body converts the excess; in this case, too much testosterone leads to the excess turning into more estrogen. It's why body-builders get who use steroids get "bitch-tits", why the men with the highest testosterone levels usually have less body hair, rather than more, and softer skin, etc. There was even an episode of House that used this little fact, with the model who was the "perfect girl", but turned out to be genetically male (actually, he was one of those natural transexuals) who's own, normal testosterone levels were excessive for his chromosomal structure. I myself tested as having higher than average testosterone levels...and I have very little body-hair, a very low chance of aggressive response, and experience a heightened amount of emotive and intuitional experiences.

Most of all, I really don't think a theoretical desire, such as the socially-constructed theory of gender, should ever cause us to ignore facts. Every extant piece of data says that when humans (or mammals in general) have their sex hormones altered, their behaviors tend to, on average, change in particular ways. Every baby toy-study has shown traditional gender breakdowns for choosing the traditionally appropriate toys, all the way down to nine months of age. While there are, as with any statistical norm, outliers, for the most part there seem to be very good reasons to accept that gender models are pretty deep into our DNA.

And why wouldn't they be? Why would humans be so special? We have complex social behaviors, sure, but that's just another behavioral model engaged in by social species, and we observe social species all over nature...it's a very adaptive trait. Think about, phenomenologically, what the basic facts of life mean; at any given moment, a woman has certain facts that are true about her simply by virtue of her being a woman, and the same is true for men. A woman is aware they will menstruate, can get pregnant, eventually won't be able to get pregnant any more, etc, while a male has none of that. Instead, the male knows that his status as a man is always in question, that he's going to be doing the equivalent of dick-waving contests for the rest of his existence. These twins sets of basic, existential facts are going to affect worldview and behavior in some way, even if that way is to abandon them all as bad faith and become asexual.

I am not saying that there is variation; variation is inherent. But there is a physical configuration of the body that is "the body in pain", "the body angry", "the body sad", etc. They are even getting to the point of reading thoughts with brain scans. Once they can associate certain thoughts and states of mind with certain states of human brains, the next step to total mind control is to learn how to create those configurations artificially. Our thoughts, feelings, and states of mind are arrangements of the brain and body, nothing more, and nothing less. I consider the social structures and sociological aspects as just one more set of stimuli...important, sure, but not disassociated from the mechanical nature of existence.

To whatever degree brain states are quantum states (and that is probably a good deal), there is some indeterminacy, of course. But the laws of probability and mathematics will still apply to those, as well. I am a determinist, but a weak determinist. I believe that every effect has a cause, but I do not believe that it is possible to, by knowing the initial conditions of the universe, know the configurations of that universe at any given point in time; instead we have to settle for knowing what the configuration is mostly likely to be at any given time...a minute, but philosophically important, difference.

"Art should be a monster which casts servile minds into terror." - Tristan Tzara.
NealJansons is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Gray House (03-09-2012), Mr. D. (03-15-2012)
Old 03-15-2012   #7
soulless
Mannikin
Threadstarter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 6
Quotes: 0
Points: 2,721, Level: 33 Points: 2,721, Level: 33 Points: 2,721, Level: 33
Level up: 81% Level up: 81% Level up: 81%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: The Ballad of Genesis and Lady Jaye

I think you bring up too many issues in your argument and introduce sweeping philosophical claims. It’s kind of like making this conversation boring ya noe.

I’m trying to tell you that regardless of whether hormones influence gendered behaviour, ‘women are emotional’ and ‘men are aggressive’ are damaging claims. Of course it’s in your interest to protect these stereotypes – you’re a white male.
Many intelligent people work towards defying these so-called genetically predetermined characteristics, because we can, and we should. Is the world a better place with stay-at-home-mums and stoic educated men? I don’t think so. I’ve got the right to vote thanks to people who understood women aren’t pillows with ovaries. #### biology. What’s next, are you going to tell me some races are superior to others because of scientific facts and data? Furthermore, seeing as you keep bringing up philosophy, why are you ignoring all the debate about the nature empiricism itself, like the ‘fact’ that we find what we’re looking for in scientific studies? (Ramses, or Rose-Colored Resurrection Baudrillard et al)
Look, I indicated that Genesis shouldn’t have said ‘I was emotional because I took estrogen’. While I believe this is not a fact you can prove, more importantly, I’m dismayed that Genesis was quick to point to gender stereotypes as an explanation. Gen's statement doesn’t sound like genderbending art OR legitimate experimentation to me.
soulless is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
Mr. D. (03-15-2012)
Old 03-16-2012   #8
NealJansons's Avatar
NealJansons
Acolyte
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 68
Quotes: 0
Points: 2,536, Level: 32 Points: 2,536, Level: 32 Points: 2,536, Level: 32
Level up: 58% Level up: 58% Level up: 58%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: The Ballad of Genesis and Lady Jaye

Quote Originally Posted by soulless View Post
I think you bring up too many issues in your argument and introduce sweeping philosophical claims. It’s kind of like making this conversation boring ya noe.

I’m trying to tell you that regardless of whether hormones influence gendered behaviour, ‘women are emotional’ and ‘men are aggressive’ are damaging claims. Of course it’s in your interest to protect these stereotypes – you’re a white male.
Many intelligent people work towards defying these so-called genetically predetermined characteristics, because we can, and we should. Is the world a better place with stay-at-home-mums and stoic educated men? I don’t think so. I’ve got the right to vote thanks to people who understood women aren’t pillows with ovaries. #### biology. What’s next, are you going to tell me some races are superior to others because of scientific facts and data? Furthermore, seeing as you keep bringing up philosophy, why are you ignoring all the debate about the nature empiricism itself, like the ‘fact’ that we find what we’re looking for in scientific studies? (Ramses, or Rose-Colored Resurrection Baudrillard et al)
Look, I indicated that Genesis shouldn’t have said ‘I was emotional because I took estrogen’. While I believe this is not a fact you can prove, more importantly, I’m dismayed that Genesis was quick to point to gender stereotypes as an explanation. Gen's statement doesn’t sound like genderbending art OR legitimate experimentation to me.
So let me get this straight. Facts aren't facts when they don't fit what you would like to believe true about the human animal, and you are the arbiter of what other people "should" say about their own life experiences? Cool story.

Bored now.

"Art should be a monster which casts servile minds into terror." - Tristan Tzara.
NealJansons is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
ballad, genesis, jaye, lady

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TLO Welcomes Lady G TLO Welcome 0 09-26-2010 11:09 PM
The Lady Ligeia is the Conqueror Worm Doctor Munoz Edgar Allan Poe 7 03-04-2009 10:11 AM
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance Cyril Tourneur Film 3 09-04-2008 09:41 AM
The Green Lady's Collections GreenLadyInn Items Available 10 07-17-2008 03:39 PM
Lady Snowblood, Blizzard from the Netherworld Cyril Tourneur Film 0 06-01-2008 06:25 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:21 PM.



Style Based on SONGS OF A DEAD DREAMER as Published by Silver Scarab Press
Design and Artwork by Harry Morris
Emulated in Hell by Dr. Bantham
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Template-Modifications by TMS