Pessimists - What Keeps You Going?

[Benatarian]

Once you recognize that life is a fight against large amounts of structural baddness, then the good life becomes a matter of the good death. Perhaps even the ordinary human life is consciously or unconsciously mostly preparation for death where people adopt a wide range of Thanatos strategies to make a soft landing.

I live a live in relative comfort, but still the alleged supremacy of Being over Unbeing is untenable, so what keeps me going?

I simply refuse to kill myself as I feel this is too much of a degrading and painful experience (akin to subjecting myself to gang rape or torture). I am repulsed by suicide clinics. Too clinical.

However I believe I could dig deep and mobilize anger and release it on somebody so they are forced to kill me. Anger trumphs fear and pain anyday. I am not yet digging deep because I still have empathy for other people (even the worst idiots did not choose to be born).

I get satisfaction from the daily repetition found in weightlifting, this is my meditation and in a sense a coping mechanism for my occasional nagging thoughts on the Eternal Recurrence. Oh, I absolutely adore the companionship from dogs and small children and they make me think less which is good!

 

[ToALonelyPeace]

Can anyone really say if their pain in living outweighs their grieving families' pain? You don't know how hard it will hit them.

I suspect in a few decades, many more will consider suicide because their standard of living has gotten to a low they never imagined possible.

The thing about my pain is that it is the Absolute. Imagine if someone has a tumor in their brain and the family wants them to live despite numerous failed operations...what a joke that would be, to live in excruciating agony for others who can't even be kind enough to put their loved one down as they do with their dogs! Though it is impossible to compare my pain with others' pain, nonetheless the only pain I feel is my pain-hence it has Absolute presence to me.

I still understand your point about families' grief though. Once, I heard of a man who committed suicide in a hotel with a made-up alias. They suspected he did it because he didn't want anyone to know. To do it under an alias! It haunted me ever since.

 

[Malone]

Habit keeps me going.

Classical music, dogs, sunshine, certain landscapes and peaceful cafes where you can sit quietly and watch the world go by console me.

But as I get older, the wearisome nature of it all becomes more apparent and the prospect of old age and ill-health deepens the conviction that life is nothing more than a sick joke.

 

[Druidic]

Hey, bendk! We have something in common. We've both been gutted, probably for different reasons. I didn't complain then, I was only 27 at the time and wanted to live; but I wouldn't go through ir again unless I was given a lifetime (refills on demand)
prescription for Dilaudid. But I do wish I still had an inferior vena cava... the pain of chronic Charlie horses wears thin.

Hang in there, my friend, I agree with all you say. I may check our of this low rent motel they call Life one of these days--everyone I love is dead-- but for now I'm too stubborn and enjoy spitting in the face of the universe. Yes, it's a lunatic illusion but we find our pleasures where we find 'em.

 

[Michael]

I am very sympathetic to what Benatarian said "the good life becomes a matter of the good death" with all the implications of "good" that one wants to put (or not put) in there. I may be misinterpreting the statement but Benatarian didn't seem to mean "good" in a "society approves sense" but (one possibility) in maybe more of a clean, noble, and/or fulfilling death. I like this. There have been times I've been actively suicidal in the past and I am too ignorant to think I can pass judgment on people who feel that suicide is the only option of the most preferable one. Also, since I've been actively suicidal, it would be flat out hypocritical of me. At the same time, I no longer go that direction even if those thoughts pass through my mind. I think it's this "good death" aspect that reroutes my thoughts currently. Pain isn't too much of an issue for me, it's the speed. Slow death always seems way way worse than a fast one, even if the speedy one is painful. As I was reading Benatarian's post I realize that a large part of my life is preparation for dying a "good death" as nebulous as that is. Great observation Benatarian.

 

[Druidic]

Read "A Happy Death" by Camus.

August Derleth once wrote to me that "the Ancients" judged the quality of a man's life by how well he died. His father had just recently passed at the time.

 

[Robert Adam Gilmour]

ToALonelyPeace - I think a loving person could reasonably kill a loved one to release them from excruciating pain.
But most people who consider suicide probably aren't in that sort of unbearable pain. It's difficult to compare pain. But my point was that a suicide can create far more suffering than it erases. I guess in some few cases it could actually create a lot of benefits for others.

I hope that guy who created a different name didn't have anyone who loved him at that time, because not knowing what happened to someone can be worse than knowing they've killed themselves.

Benatarian - Why would not caring about your family when you are too dead to care about anything factor in? If you want to create a better world you might not give them priority over everything else but they are an obvious consideration if you care about reducing suffering.

Do you consider getting someone to kill you less degrading than suicide?

 

[Gray House]

Maverick Philosopher's own position is theism, and if you're familiar with his blog you will probably remember that he has argued against the notion (held by some) that belief in God is rationally compulsory; instead he argues that belief in God is merely rationally defensible. I think the same is probably true of many philosophical world-views, including pessimism. One can rationally be a pessimist (there are obviously some grounds for it) without making overweening claims that the position must be held by any rational or honest person. Personally, I wish pessimism didn't seem as true to me as it does, but I wouldn't claim that it must necessarily seem true to every rational or honest person.

I can't tell for sure whether you're saying you think a particular world-view is probably true, but you're not certain about it, or if you're saying there is no absolute truth about it. "Pessimism" can mean negative predictions, in which case someone could be either realistic or biased in their prediction, but given the context, I assume you're referring to anti-life philosophy. If you're claiming contradictory ideas can both be true, I don't know what you mean by "true".

my[/I] pain is that it is the Absolute. Imagine if someone has a tumor in their brain and the family wants them to live despite numerous failed operations...what a joke that would be, to live in excruciating agony for others who can't even be kind enough to put their loved one down as they do with their dogs! Though it is impossible to compare my pain with others' pain, nonetheless the only pain I feel is my pain-hence it has Absolute presence to me.

It is possible, and often easy, to compare one's own pain with another's pain. You make plans based on knowledge of your own pain and what will cause or prevent it. You also have knowledge of the pains of others, often with a high degree of confidence. The fact of your only having first-person experience of your own pain is an irrational basis for ethical reasoning. It's not a significant distinguishing difference, because everyone else's pain is also experienced in first person, just not by you. I'm not arguing against the conclusion that suicide can be justified. I'm arguing against what I think is bad reasoning not necessary to defend the right to die.

 

[gveranon]

Maverick Philosopher's own position is theism, and if you're familiar with his blog you will probably remember that he has argued against the notion (held by some) that belief in God is rationally compulsory; instead he argues that belief in God is merely rationally defensible. I think the same is probably true of many philosophical world-views, including pessimism. One can rationally be a pessimist (there are obviously some grounds for it) without making overweening claims that the position must be held by any rational or honest person. Personally, I wish pessimism didn't seem as true to me as it does, but I wouldn't claim that it must necessarily seem true to every rational or honest person.

I can't tell for sure whether you're saying you think a particular world-view is probably true, but you're not certain about it, or if you're saying there is no absolute truth about it.

The former. Given humans' epistemological position, I don't see how fallibilism about philosophical world-views can be avoided.

"Pessimism" can mean negative predictions, in which case someone could be either realistic or biased in their prediction, but given the context, I assume you're referring to anti-life philosophy.

The recent thread called "Anti-Pessimist as a Political Polemic" was probably about the "negative prediction" sense of the word (or it may have equivocated between the two senses of the word), but I've only been talking about pessimistic life-philosophy in this thread.

If you're claiming contradictory ideas can both be true, I don't know what you mean by "true".

I'm not claiming contradictory ideas can both be true.

 

[teguififthzeal]

I can only speak for myself and I am not an antinatalist. One goes from the horror of the news and the licensed authority to kill to an everyday existence that seems like an awkward, really bizarre tea chest waiting to explode.

I volunteer in an ER psych ward and the intakes are enormous. The shade has sufficiently thickened to the point where anyone who would speak out against pessimism has more than a few ounces of nonsense in them.

But one can only reach the same conclusion: if someone is in dire straits that are worse than your own, you should at least try to be there for them, and there lots of those people now.

I have experienced a degree of "burnout" that I don't think I've ever experienced before in this regard.

 

[Ibrahim]

There is a delicate balance of power between near-despair at the utter hopelessness of the human position & the gnawing suspicion that i could very well be wrong in my (hopelessly subjective) assessment of our predicament. In this regard, i would remark that the Lovecraftian perspective of our cosmic insignificance seems in many ways hopeful and optimistic- as if it somehow matters, this insignificance of ours...the mystical branches of most religions deal in far more profound awareness of our essential Non-Being.

I guess i'm not a pessimist yet.

 

[Sad Marsh Ghost]

I have already not existed for countless millions of years. I don't like to repeat myself.

 

[Gray House]

Lovecraft and people who argue for the cosmic insignificance of life generally point to its physical smallness in comparison to the vastness of the non-sentient universe. I agree with the view that it's a horrible fact of our existence that we're in an unintelligent universe that's indifferent to what happens to the life in it. But I don't agree that the vastness of the universe makes life insignificant. It's the quality of sentience that makes life significant. It would follow from the "insignificant in the vastness of the universe" argument that, although everyone would be insignificant by being small compared to the universe, short and thin people would be slightly more insignificant than tall and obese people.

I also think there can be reasonable certainty about whether a philosophical world-view is true or false. It is possible to avoid being hopelessly subjective and fallible. If, hypothetically, you were given a description of the worst suffering that happened in the world on a given day, and a description of the most enjoyable experience that happened in the world on a given day, and you were told either you could experience both consecutively for an hour each, or you could experience neither, aversion to the "both experiences" option would not be out of irrational subjective bias. The aversion would be a result of recognizing the comparative qualities of the degree to which something can be horrible, and the degree to which something can be enjoyable. That is one example of knowledge that's supportive to some world-views and unsupportive to others.

 

[Sad Marsh Ghost]

I don't really find it horrifying my life is insignificant and meaningless. I was never given sufficient reason to believe otherwise.

This may be part of why I'm moving away from cosmic horror. I'd be more frightened if Jesus returned today throwing crazy magic everywhere and telling the world that all us sinners were damned for eternity than if we discovered there were big aliens out there who didn't care about us. One of these would completely change how I view reality and myself, whilst the other is accommodated to fit modern reality. Me being some tiny mote in an indifferent universe is less frightening to me these days than me having some sort of unseen and unfair divine purpose that damns me in an undreamable eternal way.

Somebody posted an Alan Moore video recently about how Lovecraft invented a horror for the modern age, but to me it seems a materialist atheist horror is basically compatible with everyday life now for most young people. I think the pendulum has swung and spiritual horror would be more troubling. I have started to find Le Fanu more frightening than Lovecraft recently. The universe not caring about is is less terrifying to me than the idea of the universe hating me.

 

[Nirvana In Karma]

Cosmicism isn't responsible for the major part of my own pessimism, though it had certainly sown some of the seeds.

Cosmicism has actually enhanced my appreciation for the natural world. The natural history of the Earth, for example, dwarfs the seemingly epic human history to the point where it looks utterly pretentious. (Sorry history buffs )

 

[Sad Marsh Ghost]

Yes, I find cosmicism comforting also. If there is no meaning to life, then I'm not a failure. If life is some complex divine sacrament I have failed at and shall be punished with undreamable terrors it's so much more frightening to me. Damnation is a very powerful nightmare concept. I have seen non-existence already. The idea there is no escape from my horrible existence into non-existence and instead we move on to an unimaginable level of nightmare reality to torment us would be a worse scenario.

 

[Nirvana In Karma]

I agree with you on your views on "materialistic "horror in our dystopian nightmare of a world, James, but I personally don't find "spiritual" horror more terrifying than "materialistic" horror in itself conceptually.

 

[Sad Marsh Ghost]

It's been a slow transition for me over the last year as I have moved away from cosmic horror and toward 'ghost stories'. Aickman, de la Mare and Le Fanu's works really trouble me. I have horrifying nightmares almost every night about being in hell. There is no fire or anything. Mostly bright colours and the strangest of shrill noises. Every morning I feel like I'm a ghost who clawed his way out of hell to experience banality. I'm going fucking crazy.

de la Mare's The Three Friends is very relatable to me. Shame Tartarus didn't include it in their collection.

 

[Gray House]

I'd be more frightened if Jesus returned today throwing crazy magic everywhere and telling the world that all us sinners were damned for eternity than if we discovered there were big aliens out there who didn't care about us. One of these would completely change how I view reality and myself, whilst the other is accommodated to fit modern reality. Me being some tiny mote in an indifferent universe is less frightening to me these days than me having some sort of unseen and unfair divine purpose that damns me in an undreamable eternal way.

I would also be frightened if any of the religious icons returned "throwing crazy magic around", because the magic would be crazy. I would welcome something that arrived to direct the events in the universe intelligently. If the universe behaved according to rational judgment, it would be better than it is currently.

 

[Ibrahim]

I also think there can be reasonable certainty about whether a philosophical world-view is true or false.

Well, perhaps. And certainly in the case of the example you describe, James; but comfort & discomfort aren't so much philosophical ideas as knowable physical realities, upon which it is that much easier to base a choice. In the realm of philosophical world-views however, we may or may not be in Plato's cave, so to speak...