Technical meditation

LeglessSaltyDiogenes

LeglessSaltyDiogenes

Acolyte
UG was raised by Theosophists in India and they had him doing things like jhanas (highly concentrated altered states) at a young age. His descriptions of powerful shaking vibrations and painful metamorphoses eerily recall the descriptions of the Arising and Passing Away experience as described by Burmese meditation masters and recounted in Dan Ingram's meditation manual "Mastering the Core Teachings of Buddha":
In the early part of this stage, the meditator's mind speeds up more and more quickly, and reality begins to be perceived as particles or fine vibrations of mind and matter, each arising and vanishing utterly at tremendous speed. The traditional texts actually call this stage the beginning of insight practices, as from this point on there is a much more direct and non-conceptual understanding of the Three Characteristics.

This stage is marked by dramatically increased perceptual abilities when compared with the previous stages. For example, one might be able to hone one’s awareness to laser-like precision on the tip of one’s little finger and seemingly be able to perceive the beginning and ending of every single sensation that made up that finger. Spontaneous physical movements and strange jerky breathing patterns that showed up in Cause and Effect and became more pronounced in the Three Characteristics may speed up significantly. This stage explains where many practices such as Tibetan inner fire practices of the Yogic breath of fire come from. It can also reveal the source material that inspired teachings such as those about chakras and energy channels. Many descriptions of Kundalini awakening are talking about this stage(1).
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Since its possible to master concentration states while remaining behind in insight practices I wonder if UG hadn't reached this stage of meditation through tremendous spiritual momentum, which would explain why it was so painful and discombobulating. His cynicism about the possibility of true enlightenment, as well as the continuing vibrations and darkness of his vision, bespeak to me a hellish Dark Night of the Soul (MCTB 5. Dissolution, Entrance to the Dark Night - Wiki - www.dharmaoverground.org), which inevitably follows A&P like the moon follows the sun. Also his description of post "calamity" consciousness as being "discontinuous" reminds me of the descriptions of "Fruition" (which I haven't experienced fully yet, so I'll shut up about it).

I also believe Ligotti to be experienced in these realms; from reading his fiction and interviews, it seems he has the requisite insights into suffering, impermanence and No-Self to have at least crossed this barrier. He could have easily crossed it during his drug using teenage years (psychedelics can catalyze these experiences and launch you into new territory without preparation).

In any case I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has practiced meditation and found their experiences to be similar to UG's. I know the first time I crossed A&P, although I was ruled by strong bliss and concentration, I felt out of control in a manic way that turned into the depths of a depressive period which coincided with my Dark Night. Thankfully I knew how to practice through it, but if I hadn't I would probably be stuck there now. My compassion goes towards anyone who has been through this and can't find a way out.:eek:

(1) Mastering the Core Teachings of Buddha, Dan Ingram, 2012
 
Sean Blackwell's enlightenment ,
Part 1 (of 5)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az9SCgaeKdc&list=UULAAIgB7Facm7YaKaI28y6A

I had an experience like this . If you wanted recommended ethnography to read and if you search my post history I've raised discussion here on it and unearthed some heavy stuff. In Idea of the Holy, Rudolf Otto talks about a kind of temporal distortion.. the shudder spooky feeling from the ghost.. elicited from literature in the intimation of presences suggested to emerge from negative space.. well, in S.Korean shamanism and other mediumship traditions they use the same energetic catharsis to offer this release of energy, in a lamenting sense… they call this ritual shinbyeong, or the Self-Loss, and it triggers a manic psychotic episode. Done properly, within a living lineage, enlightenment is instantaneous.

Meditation itself is a weak form of shamanic trance.

Trance is not an altered but guided state of imagination , journeying..

S.Korean shamans derive ecstasy purely from offering their souls and being reciprocated, without drug use or trance. In Vietnamese mediumship for example , a medium literally offers themselves to the realm of Hungry Ghosts . Vietnamese religion is towards the very top of my list for things to do and experience in my life, and if they weren't such strict vegetarians I would be there right now. Anyone with thoughts on vegetarianism feel free to express your thoughts on it.

Vietnamese conception of mysterium tremendum et fascinans (read Otto's book) is known as căn cao số đày .

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People who owe a debt are obligated to serve the spirits. If they know what the debt is, they can pay spirits of the four palaces (trả nợ tứ phủ) by having specific rituals prescribed by their masters. Others only cancel the debt by becoming a spirit medium. When spirits select people to become mediums they are said to have “the root of medi- umship” (căn đồng). The term căn has various meanings and con- notations in Vietnamese language and belief. Here the word “root” means to have something deep and essential, it is a part of the person. Căn has the sense of nature or basic character and in this context it also implies destiny. People whose character and fate impel them toward mediumship are said to have a spiritual destiny (căn cao số đày) that may be either heavy (nặng) or light (nhẹ) and they must be initi- ated to “cool their fate” (mát mẻ).
Spiritual debt and the spirit root both have agency, causing people to have unusual experiences. Căn is manifested through dreams, sud- den revelation, spontaneous possession, behavioral changes, or ill- ness. In many cases these experiences are associated with a major life change or crisis. For others, căn is manifested by a curiosity in lên đồng that slowly becomes a joy and an entertainment, and then a reli- gious need (Lê Hồng Lý 2001). Many mediums have told Karen and Hiền they have căn simply because they are interested in the ritual. “If you didn’t have căn one medium said, “you wouldn’t want to go to the ceremonies.”
Spirit mediums often see themselves as afflicted by spiritually gen- erated disease, sometimes referred to as a yin disease (Nguyễn Thị Hiền 2002). Whereas natural forces cause yang diseases that are diag- nosed by doctors of Western medicine, only ritual specialists, divin- ers, or mediums can diagnose yin diseases. This is a folk classification, similar to the dichotomy of “natural” and “supernatural” in Western discourse or, in Laderman’s (1991: 15) work, “usual” and “unusual” sickness. The indications of yin disease vary. It can be an inexplicable change in character—insanity, the knotting of the hair, or what is known as a fake illness. Patients may have terrible dreams of meeting with a spirit, seeing a snake or leech, or traveling to an invisible world. They may have knotted hair (kết tóc), in which their hair becomes tangled and dirty for no apparent reason or they may become hys- terical and exhibit symptoms of “insanity” (điên) such as wandering aimlessly while talking nonsense.
What the Vietnamese call điên identifies a constellation of symp- toms that would be labeled as psychosis in the West including disori- entation, uncontrollable impulses, speaking in gibberish, and aimless wandering. People in this state think of themselves as spirits such as the Tenth Prince or Third Princess or even, on occasion, their own ancestors. An individual may believe they have supernatural powers and command their family members and neighbors to show respect by praying to them. They sometimes go naked or soak in a pond or river. People who have these symptoms often refuse to go to hospitals for treatment. They may believe they can only be cured if their fami- lies take them to a mother goddess temple. -- Karen Fjelstad, Spirits Without Borders

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF8n7e4G57w
 
LeglessSaltyDiogenes said:
Theosophists
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Related,

They worship Shakespeare, Sir Winston Churchill, Victor Hugo, and other notable people, in addition to their own cultural heroes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPZ-iEw_pEM

Vietnamese Theosophy . Geniism or whatever crossing paths with Theosophical movement in the 1920s . Imho you can't understand the history of modern theosophical societies without investigating this obscure but important movement. Vietnam is a country with millions of theosophists.

They're less strict about vegetarianism than VoVi meditation however they won't give you the kind of transmission offered in VoVi without flying to Vietnam.
 
Thanks Spooky, for bringing a little known (to the West) tradition to light. I've seen some Korean rituals online and they are indeed heavy. Lots of drums and shaking, Dionysian frenzy. Quite impressive that they can do this without drugs, but I believe it to be possible now. I've had experiences with Western ritual magick similar to điên , which is why I stopped practicing and mostly just meditate now ( stabilizing the field of attention is my main priority, not mussing it up!). I continue to occaisionally use psychedelics in a vaguly ritualistic manner, but without any explicit magickal trappings. I find that meditation while tripping is at least as powerful as meditating in dreams, and there is some science to correlate this discovery (which is certainly not mine): How magic mushrooms induce a dreamlike state - health - 04 July 2014 - New Scientist
 
On vegetarianism: I'm not yet but my girlfriend is a vegan, which means I'll probably be one too soon. I find that a good dose of Ligotti helps sway me in that direction ( who was the author he quotes in TCATHR who compares the carnivorous Earth to a science fiction nightmare? ), but since I'm on the fence about re-incarnation I continue to eat meat, as well as just plain old laziness. If I were part of a lineage I would definitely give it up, as most serious shamanic traditions require a strict diet ( something the abstemious Gracie jiu jitsu family and the DMT addled Amazon shamans also have in common ).
 
LeglessSaltyDiogenes said:
Thanks Spooky, for bringing a little known (to the West) tradition to light. I've seen some Korean rituals online and they are indeed heavy. Lots of drums and shaking, Dionysian frenzy. Quite impressive that they can do this without drugs, but I believe it to be possible now. I've had experiences with Western ritual magick similar to điên , which is why I stopped practicing and mostly just meditate now ( stabilizing the field of attention is my main priority, not mussing it up!). I continue to occaisionally use psychedelics in a vaguly ritualistic manner, but without any explicit magickal trappings. I find that meditation while tripping is at least as powerful as meditating in dreams, and there is some science to correlate this discovery (which is certainly not mine): How magic mushrooms induce a dreamlike state - health - 04 July 2014 - New Scientist
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and quite sad that much of the neo-shamanism community know nothing about potentially how to do this. As I said though, it's a swan dive into literally the abyss. I'm not knocking shamanic trance but it's not involved in initiation. It's important to differentiate shamans using trance, from initiation. They're not the same thing.

Charlotte Perkins Gilman , author of The Yellow Wall-Paper, is a shaman. I prefer to think of the category as sorcery, and shamanism is merely a technique used by sorcerers.

Samuel Taylor Coleridge, in Rime of the Ancient Mariner, explains the whole process. Daemonic-Dread, temporal distortion.. Self-Loss, mania, reciprocity, fascination, it's all there. No trance. No drugs.

When I studied even just a little of Vietnamese and Korean mediumship/shamanism whatever you want to call it, I learned an immense amount really quickly, and the stars came out in English horror fiction.
 
What do you think of John Dee and his scrying method, SpookyDread? I immediately thought of this when you brought up English horror. Also a number of Coil titles popped into my head: "The Remote Viewer", "What Kind of Animal Are You", "At Your Own Risk", "Please God Fuck My Mind For Good", "The Dreamer Is Still Asleep". There seems to be a real need for scholarship on the connections between English esotericism and Asian shamanism.
 
LeglessSaltyDiogenes said:
What do you think of John Dee and his scrying method, SpookyDread? I immediately thought of this when you brought up English horror. Also a number of Coil titles popped into my head: "The Remote Viewer", "What Kind of Animal Are You", "At Your Own Risk", "Please God Fuck My Mind For Good", "The Dreamer Is Still Asleep". There seems to be a real need for scholarship on the connections between English esotericism and Asian shamanism.
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Coleridge And The Daemonic Imagination by Gregory Leadbetter


A lecture on Coleridge by Gregory Leadbetter part 1 of 3,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6swvElUnS-s

,


An overview of the mathematically correct rules of Mahjongg . an Inspired -game . Our notion of playing cards comes from games like this. Commonly we say "Breaking the wall" but the correct idiom is "Opening the Gates" .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooY4Ylz0WNQ
 
On scrying, the VoVi meditation centre in Montreal is much like a Shinto shrine in that there is a mirror adorning an altar (used as mirrors ought to be used). Probably the closest thing you will get to a shrine outside of Japan or the Tsuabaki grand shrine of America or whatever. I know enough about the use of mirrors and occultism to gather exactly what that would be used for. I also am aware that the Vietnamese knowledge of the occult is rather intense. They know just about everything that can be known about occultism. The lack of much publication this stuff risks this knowledge at being lost .
 
The Vietnamese, Korean, idea of mediumship and enlightenment is very, very dark . "Necessary but also Despised" . The ultimate in pessimism, really. This pessimistic idea of shamanism dominates around the world. Once you get involved in this stuff, and you say you were despondent, which means you had the mediums temperament, you need to keep on with it. There is.. so.. much.. to recommend reading.. I don't really know where to begin.. but the key thing would be reconciliation. Sudden death syndrome among the Hmong people happened after they had stopped venerating. … So keep doing that, recommended.

and btw Occultists should know better. I didn't avoid my interest in Christianity all this time to keep my rosy glasses on.

//

There's really nothing else like this , btw . You'd think new faiths like this would crop up all the time but they don't. It's especially unique for syncretizing not just with Christianity but theosophy, as I said. uh , Tragically unique. What is there to compare it to really. Reiki is nothing like this. It's the third largest religion in Vietnam, it had really exploded, and made a significant impact on the western occult movement really early on. This is before Kenneth Anger. Before Jimmy Page. Before any of that. It's not a new movement. The lack of publication on this is bizarre beyond words.

The veneration , and reverence , for english and french (and other) authors, is astounding.

When I was young, I was on a quest to find the right faith. My family was Buddhist and worshipped ancestors, but they did not have much to say about the modern world. I went to a Catholic boarding school, and my French teachers wanted me to convert. But they taught me that our ancestors were really evil spirits. I could not accept that. I wanted something more inclusive. The Christians say they have a universal faith, but it seemed to exclude Asian traditions and to teach feudal values. Buddhism has idealistic values, but it did not help people in the time of French colonialism. When I found Caodaism, it was like coming home: the rituals and altars were famil- iar, but the message was more universal. It was a way to worship one God, but to see him as the father of all. . . . Kipling said “East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet.” In Caodaism, we are proving that he was wrong. - 12. http://dornsife.usc.edu/assets/sites/329/docs/Diaspora_as_Religious_Doctrine_JVS_2011.pdf
 
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k sorry I should break this down a bit, Cao Daism, why? I was born in 1985. I'm Scottish/Irish whatever ancestry. I'm really white. I grew up in the 1990s sandwiched between the developments of generations X and Y . Y is a fake generation category from media pundits that want to market to a new segment of the population after generation x went impossibly underground, my opinion.. some bullet points about my interests in this.. why I think it's important… I have very practical reasons that are without compare. This would be my reasoning. I could think of more practical reasons.

  1. I've been to a local Cambodian wat, several times, they told me to go do Vipassana, had I done that it would have been 10 days of intensive meditation, like camping, and a strong likelihood that if I had a breakdown they'd have called the wahmbulance and carted me off to emergency. I shouldn't go to a religious centre only to be told to go somewhere else.
  2. I can do this without sitting in the lotus position. They use home altars and mirrors. Its not like yoga, or buddhist style meditation. More old school than that ;)
  3. First to get this out of the way.. they're a political clusterfuck and I'd recommend for anyone interested to understand and sympathize with them to not judge that so much and get to know who they are and what they're about in person. They're cosmopolitan.
  4. The current scene today has a problem with gentrification. Cao Daism venerate Lenin. The history of communism created a strong aversion to up scaling in spas.
  5. Ossified, largely in a good way. Like stepping into a time machine to Victorian and early 20th century orientalism.
  6. They want me there. They're trans-national. They're welcoming.
  7. they follow the Way, are culturally close to Cambodia, Japan, Korea, Laos and so on, but they're as interested in groups like the Golden Dawn as I would be.
  8. They're about as new as Victorian spiritualism is considered "new" today. They're approaching their centennary. All of these things I'm interested in like geniism is retained. It's not a "new" religion.
  9. A lot of the ritual technology used by modern occult groups is indigenous to a culture like Vietnam, or Japan, they're an occultist's wet dream.
  10. They don't believe in aliens.
 
SpookyDread said:
k sorry I should break this down a bit, Cao Daism, why? I was born in 1985. I'm Scottish/Irish whatever ancestry. I'm really white. I grew up in the 1990s sandwiched between the developments of generations X and Y . Y is a fake generation category from media pundits that want to market to a new segment of the population after generation x went impossibly underground, my opinion.. some bullet points about my interests in this.. why I think it's important… I have very practical reasons that are without compare. This would be my reasoning. I could think of more practical reasons.

  1. I've been to a local Cambodian wat, several times, they told me to go do Vipassana, had I done that it would have been 10 days of intensive meditation, like camping, and a strong likelihood that if I had a breakdown they'd have called the wahmbulance and carted me off to emergency. I shouldn't go to a religious centre only to be told to go somewhere else.
  2. I can do this without sitting in the lotus position. They use home altars and mirrors. Its not like yoga, or buddhist style meditation. More old school than that ;)
  3. First to get this out of the way.. they're a political clusterfuck and I'd recommend for anyone interested to understand and sympathize with them to not judge that so much and get to know who they are and what they're about in person. They're cosmopolitan.
  4. The current scene today has a problem with gentrification. Cao Daism venerate Lenin. The history of communism created a strong aversion to up scaling in spas.
  5. Ossified, largely in a good way. Like stepping into a time machine to Victorian and early 20th century orientalism.
  6. They want me there. They're trans-national. They're welcoming.
  7. they follow the Way, are culturally close to Cambodia, Japan, Korea, Laos and so on, but they're as interested in groups like the Golden Dawn as I would be.
  8. They're about as new as Victorian spiritualism is considered "new" today. They're approaching their centennary. All of these things I'm interested in like geniism is retained. It's not a "new" religion.
  9. A lot of the ritual technology used by modern occult groups is indigenous to a culture like Vietnam, or Japan, they're an occultist's wet dream.
  10. They don't believe in aliens.
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Those seem like good reasons, but I wouldn't discount a solid Vipassana practice to help ground you before liftoff. You don't have to do a 10 day retreat; I progressed in Insight on my own, although I did a lot better once I found a sangha. You can make it as colourful or as dry as you want; hell, surround yrself with mirrors and dolls and puppets while you sit. I don't think the lotus position is necessary either, some of my most intense breakthroughs during A&P happened while walking.

The main thing you need is a teacher who you can bounce ideas off of and who can check yr ego if you get too grandiose or reckless, which is a hazard of these "shortcut" methods. My Zen teacher knows about my interests and practices, and she's quite supportive but she regularly asks probing questions about my health and mental fitness, just to remind me not to fall into naughty habits again. :o
 
Salty, if we were hanging out and I had a stick to hit you with I'd do that out of love :p I considered checking out the Zen sangha here where I live in Montreal, the master is Dr. Albert Low . He is well educated and authored some books on Zen mindset applied in business. His thesis is that a business , it's customers, the community, and so on is an organism, subsisting on inter relationships between those different spheres, and reconciliation is the way to run a great business. You can look up his work but anyway.. I have no idea if he ever read these Zen books or not, feasibly he could have.. Elon Musk, founder of Tesla Motors. This is totally the ideology Musk follows on business, he took great risks that seemed insane to common understandings of success in business, but long term they have paid off. I'd be interested in checking out this sangha but it's like $50 and I don't have that right now .

I went to VoVi yesterday, marked by strange synchronicities as well, and they told me I could begin immediately without paying. One of the things we talked about lol was the people who go around to all these different places collecting mantras, and lol they asked me very probing questions like kind of testing me and yeah that is not something I would do.

"What is that light?"
Panawe was sterner than usual, while his wife clung to his arm. "It is Alppain—our second sun," he replied. "Those hills are the Ifdawn Marest.... Now let us get to our shelter."
"Is it imagination, or am I really being affected—tormented by that light?"
"No, it's not imagination—it's real. How can it be otherwise when two suns, of different natures, are drawing you at the same time? Luckily you are not looking at Alppain itself. It's invisible here. You would need to go at least as far as Ifdawn, to set eyes on it."
"Why do you say 'luckily'?"
"Because the agony caused by those opposing forces would perhaps be more than you could bear.... But I don't know." -- Voyage To Arcturus
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5hJhIe58_U

I have not much inkling of who this guy is but the documentary film makers of Crazywise have interviewed him and then had posted this interview with him on their facebook. Pretty crazy interview. He had a spiritual emergence psychosis himself and tells this guy straight (needs to be said more often today) that there is no preparation for this. This is one of the reasons I don't want to do Zen but anyway. There is no "preparedness" for enlightenment.
 
Allow me to take that stick back and whack you over the noggin: There is no preparation that the conscious mind can formulate, but through meditation you can build up momentum that will push you through the Dark Night, as well as rooting the Gnosis in a discipline that will carry you through the "devastating" aspect of Enlightenment. The reason to take things gradually is that each stage contains elements that prepare you for the next stage. Done this way, the ego's boundaries are softened at first , instead of destroyed completely, but the Insight into Self is permanent, barring catastrophic brain damage. At each level, a different layer of Self is peeled away and shown for what it is, and a corresponding form of suffering is eliminated, if we follow the 10 fetters model.

Also if you're going into shamanism, its good to be aware of the 10 Corruptions of Insight:
The Ten Corruptions of Insight are: illumination, knowledge, rapturous happiness, tranquility, bliss, resolute confidence, exertion, assurance, equanimity and attachment. To quote the great meditation master Sayadaw U Pandita, from his great but very hard-to-find book, On the Path to Freedom, “As for the practicing yogi, he will at once recognize the above as imperfections of insight not representing dhamma breakthrough and are only to be noted off, remembering the teacher’s advice as to what is path and not path. Being disabled by the ten imperfections, he would not be capable of observing the triple characteristics in their true nature; but once freed from imperfections, he is able to do so.”{1}
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Terence McKenna was always saying that the DMT beings would enjoin you to "Pay attention. Don't be dazzled by the fireworks, etc." I only have experience with deva realms ( I believe thats the best term for where psychedelics can take you), but one thing I've noticed is that they really enjoy fucking with humans. They will tell you they are yr Holy Guardian Angel, anything you want to hear, and watch you do ridiculous things because of it. Being aware of the 10 corruptions, you will NOT give in to rapture and bliss, nor tranquility or over-confidence. The lasting equanimity gained will make you a more reliable shaman, as you'll be able to better act in dicey situations. I know part of the attraction of shamanism is losing yrself in the psychic maelstrom, but if yr helping other people as well as yrself it pays to have an eye in yr storm, if you catch my drift. :cool:

Hungry ghosts would be more like animals that just do what they do, and maybe would be more likely to reciprocate than higher beings. But also beware of this: The Path of the Powers that you are following may be rich and rewarding, but in the ultimate journey back to Source its easy to get lost in that realm. Shinzen Young talks about it in this video, as the 4th trap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i288Lnb7NOk

Zen business guy sounds interesting, but what you really need is dhamma friends who can provide an understanding and supportive network to shield you from the corrosive effect of practicing too much on yr own. Ritual magick and shamanism is especially bad to practice in isolation; while more powerful, it will erode yr psyche. Look at Jhonn Balance of Coil in his final years. He'd retreated into a self imposed isolation of alcoholic delirium, and he was the most genuinely shamanistic performer we've had in the early 21st century I believe. Peter Christopherson (RIP) also talks about the risks of this work in this excellent video: @ 16:33

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeZyaZ3QCA4

I'd say be more like Sleazy, less like Jhonn in yr quest. Be methodical, be constantly aware of the Invisible Precipice, and yes, be sleazy if you like. :cool::p:cool:

{1} MTCB, Dan Ingram 2012
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x45B8cqUES4

Knowing barely anything about who he is ( I've seen two interviews ) , I appreciate where he is coming from. This is an interview in which he talks about falling off his rock. To emphatically respond to your question, why I have been very skeptical of Buddhism is that in my opinion, no matter how you cut it.. your "10 preparedness" or whatever else, utter bullshit . The way the Self-Loss works, as soon as you know how to do that, you're possessed for life. You cannot unlearn or exorcise how to get possessed. I think being possessed is awesome, and in terms of a violent water turbulence, it would be hard to have many different psychoses. Once you've collapsed your ego and displaced yourself, and your puppet self getting stitched back together, no matter how many times your threads get pulled , you'll always be a little unwound. A man who becomes a puppet, no matter how many times is taken apart and put back together, keeps all their stitches.
 
SpookyDread said:
Sadhguru -- CRAZYWISE Interview Bonus - YouTube

Knowing barely anything about who he is ( I've seen two interviews ) , I appreciate where he is coming from. This is an interview in which he talks about falling off his rock. To emphatically respond to your question, why I have been very skeptical of Buddhism is that in my opinion, no matter how you cut it.. your "10 preparedness" or whatever else, utter bullshit . The way the Self-Loss works, as soon as you know how to do that, you're possessed for life. You cannot unlearn or exorcise how to get possessed. I think being possessed is awesome, and in terms of a violent water turbulence, it would be hard to have many different psychoses. Once you've collapsed your ego and displaced yourself, and your puppet self getting stitched back together, no matter how many times your threads get pulled , you'll always be a little unwound. A man who becomes a puppet, no matter how many times is taken apart and put back together, keeps all their stitches.
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Thanks for that. Well don't say I didn't warn you, hehe. I've some experience with Tantra, not the more hedonist side of it though. I do have my own ritual and method of entering some kind of "possesion" state when I perform music now ( I watch videos of Iggy and Jim Morrison and go for long runs listening to heavy industrial and The Four Tops), anything to work me into an ecstatic fury; the Young Gods and Swans are the benchmarks I'm going for now, performance wise. I definitely love the feeling when music is coming out of the air and conscious will is not required to make musick.

Why not something like Voudon, which is equally about trance and possession( and looks like more fun)?. Why stand on knives when you can smoke blunts with Baron Samedhi? I like to keep things "dry", like Marcel Duchamp dry, which is what attracts me to Zen. :cool:

Your statement about stitching puppets was stunning. If being a good Buddhist provokes more statements of that nature I'll keep rubbing my belly. The Ten fetters model holds true in my experience, but ALL the maps are equally bullshit. Hence why I'm interested in shamanism, but more of the South American tradition, which just suits my temperament better. But they really have some great models, including a 9 level map of our reality plus overlapping realities populated by greater and lesser beings.
 
I think its appropriate to post some music in this thread. Spooky, yr line about stitches reminds me of Loop's "Black Sun": "Discover a soul. to tear it apart"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bQYcbShXH0
 
It depends where you're from . Korean is a northern , hyperborean shamanism. The traditions of far western european paganism like wishing wells, and maypoles, erotic exaltation, and so on.. recommended book:

Dreamtime: Concerning The Boundary Between Wilderness And Civilization by Hans Peter Duerr

those practices exist in S.Korea today . The exact sort of things that Richard Gavin, Matt Cardin write about.. I don't want to put words into their mouths.. but this creepy and psycho-sexual , night-assault, kind of stuff, weird supernatural horror,

in the modern world, S.Korean shamanism is sort of like the apex of that, in terms of cultural preservation and pop cultural dissemination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUeHl9quM18

But studying these erotic , spooky dimensions to Japanese Shinto might be difficult, they're very stoic, and basically hate anyone off of their little island. Korea is pretty much the same religious experiences, ( not dancing on knives , watch their television ) , but with more of a desire and familiarity with academia .

Someone recommend to me the most ballsy, night-terror infested, drenched in cum stains, sort of Japanese ethnography experiences, catalogued, in a book, I would love to read it

that's the sort of thing I have studied in S.Korean shamanism. Extremely lewd, loud, dirty, raunchy shit

the euphemism for going to a shaman is going to the outhouse

imho it's the Sin Eaters tradition of Ireland , original
 
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