Fiction as 'religion'

[Nemonymous]

There is much fiction *about* religion but very little fiction that aspires to *be* religion.

And for 'religion', please read 'empowered spirituality' rather than any single sect of religion.

I think the Horror and/or Fantasy genres (not sects!) are the most likely to achieve this goal. And those who have approached it (even if it was not their conscious goal): Lord Dunsany, William Hope Hodgson, Robert W Chambers (King in Yellow), HP Lovecraft, Arthur Machen, Thomas Ligotti, Jeff VanderMeer, Susanna Clarke...
Any more?

Or is this a cul de sac, because you feel that 'religion' cannot be attained by fiction. Nor should it try?

des
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Tenacity Of Feathers
www.weirdmonger.com

[Stu]

Des, other possible candidates might include:

Neil Gaiman (most notably for his Sandman series).

Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea for the Illuminatus! trilogy which the authors claimed contained subliminal messages to trigger responses in the readers' minds. Some of these responses were, I think, supposed to be of a mystical nature.

Grant Morrison for The Invisibles, his SF/H/F comic which he claimed was a hyper-sigil to turn readers into Invisibles themselves.

Alan Moore for From Hell and Promethea. The former actually produced a spiritual effect on Moore himself as it was whilst writing dialogue for a mystically-minded character that he realised that maybe there was more to gods and mysticism than he had previously believed. The latter is a mystical primer disguised as a superhero comic with discussions of kabbalah, tarot, tantra etc. And although it was written in his pre-mystical days Moore's Swamp Thing is capable of evoking a kind of eco-spirituality in the reader.

Jonathan Carroll's novels for their meditations on God and the "New Agey" pronouncements of holy man Venasque.

Anthony Shaffer for The Wicker Man. Btw, can anyone tell me which came first, the film or the novel?

Philip K Dick. Although offhand I'm not sure I can think of any of his stories that I'd describe as "empowering."

I think SF would need to be included to the genres that can successfully deal with religion. Apart from Dick there's also the response to The Matrix trilogy. And then there's all those people who aspire to be Jedi knights. :roll: And let's not forget L Ron Hubbard! :lol:

As for whether fiction can attain religion that would depend on an individual's response to any given work. Just because someone walks into a church doesn't necessarily mean they are going to have a religious experience and just because they read a book doesn't necessarily mean they will a religious experience, or even view the book as being anything to do with religion. Some will, some won't. And just to confuse the issue some will see religion in work that the writer didn't intend to contain religion. :?

It always fascinated me that Christianity is taken as a genuine religion -- even people who don't believe in it tend to respect the beliefs of those who do -- but with say the ancient Norse gods they are treated as mythology. If the Norse gods started out as just a story then at what point did people start taking them seriously as gods? And at which point did they stop taking them seriously? Conversely, why are stories in the Bible -- even the ones that Christians themselves don't think really happened e.g. the garden of Eden -- treated as religion rather than myth?

There's an interesting dynamic between what is real, fictions that people believe to be real and fictions peope believe to be false.

I'm oversimplifying things slightly by totally ignoring historical factors such as conquering nations replacing indigenous religions with their own faiths but hopefully I'm still making some sort of sense. :wink:

[Nemonymous]

Wonderful stuff, Stu. Thanks for the great examples.

Though I'd draw the line at L Ron Hubbard!

I'm indeed talking about fiction - written *as* fiction with no aim to become a 'religion' by the author but fiction aspiring *in itself* to become empowered-spirituality. This power of 'suspension of disbelief' - that only fiction supplies - can be harnessed to make a difference mentally and physically upon some as yet undiscovered plane that my own 'chasing the noumenon' is about. And 'Tenacity of Feathers' (www.weirdmonger.com)

Some items of pure music are examples of this, perhaps. Fiction is a form of such music, but with the added strength of semantic articulation and maps traced in configurations of character and plot by means of those semantics plus graphology, phonetics and syntax. Perhaps this power of fictipathy is already harnessed but we have not yet noticed.


Magic Realism is a very good example of fiction touching the noumenon. I'm reading Salman Rushdie's 'Shalimar The Clown' at the moment.

My aim in my own fiction is to take this one stage further and, as described (but not put into practice) in Susanna Clarke's 'Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell', use fiction like magic to solve real ills. A brainstorming concept.


So, I'm talking about a magic spell rather than an epiphany.

But I'm not talking about anything occult, a side of things I do not support and with which MFS was recently mistakenly connected on these very boards.

On the con I think all organized religion is "fiction". But of the writers themselves they aspire truly to form a new field most do not understand or less not let themselves understand because of foolish notion they have learned from "religion".

ei: "It's it different from what i've been taugh it must be evil"

Religion in it's true form is anything you want it to be. I think the forms it takes...at least the ones that are commonly known are the sticking point here.... I agree with the post and the intent 100%.

Azurehawk

[Nemonymous]

I think when a child-like approach to writing meets a reader with child-like suspension of disbelief, then one has this 'empowered spirituality'. HPL?

Child-like, but not childish! A big difference.

It also adds to the tenacity of vision.

And religions as the drivers of belief-systems may be based on fiction or not. I don't know. But when conscious fictions are the the drivers in themselves (irrespective of the author's intentions), they can act within various synergies (which we can further define and discuss) and become their own belief-system of mind over matter. A fiction about fiction? But, if so, fiction doubled in strength!

The act of imagining was the first act of creation?

des

[darrick]

hey des,

awesome post! for awhile i've raised my favorite fiction up to a religious level. most notably, Ligotti and HPL. i remember describing a friend's appreciation for Ligotti to a teacher/nun years back. i said this friend pretty much worshiped The Nightmare Factor and TL. the teacher/nun corrected me on the difference between being a huge fan of a fictional work and worship of a god. of course, i see no difference at all. in fact, supposed inspirational books like the bible pale in comparison with an authentic vision of reality. and i'm sure we all find Ligotti's work all too authentic and visionary. the semi-fictional world he writes about always seems to have multiple dimensions. this goes a long way to making it real, realer than real, or surreal.

this also reminds me of the movie, In the Mouth of Madness. when enough people believe, it ceases to be fiction. and of course, Sutter Cain was based on Lovecraft.

i too, desire my creative endeavors to be more than just art or entertainment. i'd like them to alter reality like a religion, to creep into the soul of those who experience my paintings/writings. although i don't shy away from serious magical/occult paths...

i think the genre of horror fiction is the closest to being a realized mythos. it takes the real, the unreal, and most of all... it takes what we fear and gives it all a kind of cohesive structure while at the same time leaving it open to the imagination and interpretation.

Darrick

[Nemonymous]

Quote Originally Posted by darrick

i think the genre of horror fiction is the closest to being a realized mythos. it takes the real, the unreal, and most of all... it takes what we fear and gives it all a kind of cohesive structure while at the same time leaving it open to the imagination and interpretation.

Thanks, Darrick, I think that fits in well with my:

Quote Originally Posted by DF Lewis";p=&quot

And religions as the drivers of belief-systems may be based on fiction or not. I don't know. But when conscious fictions are the the drivers in themselves (irrespective of the author's intentions), they can act within various synergies (which we can further define and discuss) and become their own belief-system of mind over matter. A fiction about fiction? But, if so, fiction doubled in strength! The act of imagining was the first act of creation?

[Nemonymous]

Thanks, Nepenthe. That's given me pause for thought!

I don't think that's the type of thing I meant, where fiction directly affects people's behaviour in perceived life (Heaven forfend!), but more an internal cause-and-effect within the fiction itself, making the fiction not only *seem* real, but *be* real. Internally.

Not just suspension of disbelief, but a literally meant 'magic realism', aka 'magic fiction'.

I think the 'magic fiction' thread here is also relevant:
http://www.ligotti.net/viewtopic.php?t=872

[ventriloquist]

Very interesting thread, Des.

I think Stu rounded up all of my personal suspects in this case, particularly with the mention of Morrison and Moore.

Since I'm a lazier reader than most, and a bit of a film geek to boot (I wonder if one exacerbates the other,) I couldn't help but to think of movies that might fit the bill. Kenneth Anger immediately came to mind; if we're to believe the good doctor, then his films are magic(k)al spells. Lucifer Rising and Invocation of My Demon Brother would probably be the standout examples.

Another one that came to mind (and as a personal favorite, it's never stowed too far away) is Paradjanov's Sayat Nova (The Color of Pomegranates.) Watching this film was like witnessing a part of my own soul stretched out into space and time. To clarify: I tend to think of the "soul" as a room or physical space populated variously by archetypal figures and objects, and art resonates with me most when it "conjures up the room." Thus, a great song is one that I can "walk around in," if that makes sense. (and I should add that music and visual art hits me a lot harder in this way than literature ever does.)

Anyway, if there's a mystical insight underlying this notion, then I'd say it's that ol' Hermetic standby: unity of microcosmos and macrocosmos. There is no difference between inmost light and infinite space. The "room of the soul" I mentioned becomes (always has been) the room I'm in right now.

I'm not sure if that's what Des had in mind, but needless to say, I do think it's possible for art to nudge us closer to this sort of spiritual terrain.

[Nemonymous]

Hi, Hi, Ventriloquist

Your post resonates! Thanks!

I suppose a good shortened definition of what I mean : the parthenogenesis of reality from art.

Although I was specifically addressing fiction (my field), if I were to think of a film that reveals this parthenogenesis it's, paradoxically, the stylised DEATH IN VENICE.