Anti-Natalism, Can It Really Exist?

[Mr. Veech]

Quote Originally Posted by cannibal cop

Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Veech The ontology behind conventional forms of naturalism is far too poor to account for the very nature of antinatalism. That's what my reason tells me. Of course, I'm entitled to abandon my reason. Indeed. Maybe it's just an anti-intellectual bias on my part, but I don't consider antinatalism a formal belief system that requires a rigorous adherence to materialism or rationality to support it. It simply strikes me as correct and just. And I think that's what it comes down to: either it makes intuitive sense to you or it doesn't, and I doubt that any argument, formal, or theological or moral or whatever, can (or even should) convince anyone otherwise. The primary goal, I think, is simply to let those who are sympathetic to this viewpoint know that it is a perfectly valid outlook to have, and that they should not feel coerced into rejecting it by that majority of those who, for whatever reason, are hostile to it.

We agree on the fundamentals then.

[rhysaurus]

The problem with antinatalists is that they wish they had never been born. Therefore they wish they had never grown up and learned about the philosophical position called 'antinatalism'. Therefore they wish not to be antinatalists. Some wishes are difficult to make true, but this is an easy one. Just stop being an antinatalist. Now you have what you wanted all along!

So we can see that antinatalism contains a logical self-contradiction, as does any statement that propounds a universal negative. Universal negatives have a tendency to cancel themselves out.

I know, however, that writers and reader of 'weird' fiction don't really care about syllogisms or formal logic of any sort, so I guess people will continue to say they are antinatalists, even though they can't be and are not.

[GirlyGirlMask]

I wonder how many antinatalists will be lying on their death beds thinking "so glad this is over, my existence was horrid."

I have antinatalist leanings, but I'm open to compelling arguments against it. My position could be better described as 'antinatalism?' than 'antinatalism'.

These... really aren't compelling arguments against the ethics of antinatalism, and the reality is that people are just too intellectually lazy to challenge the basic existential assumptions of our society. There is no contradiction in logic in not wanting to continue the human race and yet having been born, or being an antinatalist and being afraid of death. I find it unbelievable I read sentiments like this on a Thomas Ligotti forum, as if people haven't even read a sentence of antinatalist philosophy. Pride in ignorance.

[cannibal cop]

This thread has inspired me. In the prevailing spirit of the times, I will be compiling a list of those guilty of making antinatalistophobic comments online. Everything from mildest mockery to outright hatred and calls to violence shall carry the same weight, and the perpetrators hounded endlessly by teams of trained stalkers until they feel trapped in a sort of living hell.

And then we send the puppets after them.

[GirlyGirlMask]

Quote Originally Posted by James

I have antinatalist leanings, but I'm open to compelling arguments against it. My position could be better described as 'antinatalism?' than 'antinatalism'. These... really aren't compelling arguments against the ethics of antinatalism, and the reality is that people are just too intellectually lazy to challenge the basic existential assumptions of our society. There is no contradiction in logic in not wanting to continue the human race and yet having been born, or being an antinatalist and being afraid of death. I find it unbelievable I read sentiments like this on a Thomas Ligotti forum, as if people haven't even read a sentence of antinatalist philosophy. Pride in ignorance.

If I'm required to be an antinatalist to be a worthy addition to Thomas Ligotti Online, I'll gladly leave.

You don't have to be an antinatalist, but it helps if you understand what it is when discussing it.

[GirlyGirlMask]

Quote Originally Posted by James

You don't have to be an antinatalist, but it helps if you understand what it is when discussing it.

What is it, since I must be missing the point?

Quote Originally Posted by rhysaurus

The problem with antinatalists is that they wish they had never been born. Therefore they wish they had never grown up and learned about the philosophical position called 'antinatalism'. Therefore they wish not to be antinatalists. Some wishes are difficult to make true, but this is an easy one. Just stop being an antinatalist. Now you have what you wanted all along! So we can see that antinatalism contains a logical self-contradiction, as does any statement that propounds a universal negative. Universal negatives have a tendency to cancel themselves out. I know, however, that writers and reader of 'weird' fiction don't really care about syllogisms or formal logic of any sort, so I guess people will continue to say they are antinatalists, even though they can't be and are not.

This sounds like the rhetoric of people like Sye Ten Bruggencate who claim atheists don't exist because we all, somehow, innately know that God exists. As I understand, you are an atheist, so it's bizarre to me that you would adopt this line of thinking.

There are multifarious types of antinatalism and diverse ethical reasons for adhering to one of the variants, but I have never heard anybody justify their antinatalism with a position that suffering is easy to overcome, and the most common argument for antinatalism is to reduce mass suffering, so claiming antinatalists emotionally suffering when they are dying is inherently contradictory or absurd makes no sense because the profound negative value they apply to unreasonable suffering of that sort is why most antinatalists are antinatalists.