03-03-2017 | #41 | |||||||||||
Chymist
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Re: The Ending of True Detective
Nothing positive or "spiritual" about "A Good Man Is Hard To Find." One of the most grim and nihilistic pieces of "straight" fiction I've ever read. | |||||||||||
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03-03-2017 | #42 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: The Ending of True Detective
I hate to invoke M--k S------s here, but he would understand this. Yes, O'Connor's story is shocking and repugnant to anyone who isn't a Christian of a flaying sort, but that's the point of it. My impression is that Flannery O'Connor had thought through her doctrinal beliefs, and used them effectively in her grotesque fiction, while Faulkner's public comments seemed thoughtlessly disconnected from the best of his writing. I'm reminded of what Richard Kostelanetz wrote about Faulkner in Dictionary of the Avant-Gardes: (Yeah, I'm just a fount of quotes today. Sorry. They're pertinent quotes, you see.) I can just about imagine Faulkner being interviewed by Oprah Winfrey (hey, Cormac McCarthy did it), but can you imagine Flannery O'Connor being interviewed by Oprah? That wouldn't go well. | |||||||||||
Last edited by gveranon; 03-03-2017 at 02:24 AM.. |
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03-03-2017 | #43 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: The Ending of True Detective
Or, perhaps in more direct contrast, there is the well-known parable of the useless tree: http://www.mjglass.ca/metaphor/uselesstree.htm http://www.coldbacon.com/writing/chuang/tree.html Although the Daoist tree here doesn't give fruit, it's certainly living, and it's not 'straight' or concerned with 'vertical movement'. The Weil aphorism suggests, as much of Christianity seems to, that there is one end goal (the eschaton), and that anything that is not devoted towards that goal is not only of no value, but, like chaff, to be destroyed. The contrast here, of course, that for Daoism, uselessness is good--there's an expansiveness here that contrasts with much of the tone of Christianity. Then again, not in contrast, but in apparent agreement with the Daoist tree, big, 'useless' and alive, we have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabl...e_Mustard_Seed Or the hairs on one's head being numbered, and no sparrow falling without God's care, etc. | |||||||||||
“Absolutely candid, carefree, but straightforward speech becomes possible for the first time when one speaks of the highest." - Friedrich Schlegel
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03-03-2017 | #45 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: The Ending of True Detective
But say I had been trying to avoid all previous knowledge, expectations, etc., as I read the story (as D. F. Lewis evidently tries to do, in headlong flight from the Intentional Fallacy ). The grandmother and the Misfit talk at some length about prayer, Jesus, goodness, etc., before the Misfit shoots here. What is one to make of this? After all that earnest Jesus-talk, the Misfit just coldly shoots her anyway, thereby demonstrating the futility and impotence of notions of religion and goodness--a nihilistic ending? Is that how you read it? I think in order to read it as an expression of ultimate meaninglessness, and a repudiation of the very possibility of the goodness the characters had just been talking about, one would have to either disregard or misunderstand the Misfit's statement "She would have been a good woman, if it had been someone there to shoot her every minute of her life." And by "misunderstand," I mean not see those words in the context of the conversation he and the grandmother had just had. If I had known nothing about Flannery O'Connor, I can imagine seeing the story as a possible parody of Christian concepts. A deftly-presented reductio ad absurdum aimed at Christian moralizers. See, if you actually follow the logic of what you say you believe, it isn't all nicey-nice like your Sunday School teacher pretends it is; it's actually quite depraved. But I think that would be a misreading, too. As the Christian themes are presented toward the end, I think the most natural reading is that the author takes them seriously, and wants to confront the reader with this understanding of life, goodness, grace, etc., which is so at odds with the worldly way of seeing things. Anyway, I just found this, which I hadn't seen before--Flannery O'Connor herself explaining what she meant in the story: http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/lewiss/Oconnor.htm Intentional Fallacy alert! (Though she does say that there are other ways in which the story could be read.) O'Connor's explanation includes details and considerations I hadn't thought of, and she takes it even further than I would have expected her to, saying, "I prefer to think that, however unlikely this may seem, the old lady's gesture, like the mustard-seed, will grow to be a great crow-filled tree in the Misfit's heart, and will be enough of a pain to him there to turn him into the prophet he was meant to become." Wow. | |||||||||||
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03-03-2017 | #46 | |||||||||||
Chymist
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Re: The Ending of True Detective
Thanks for the reply, and the link, gveranon.
Before I click and read it (not sure I want to - ignorance can often be bliss), and in reply to your question: Yes, I read it as the randomness of brutality, and how a simple country drive with the family can turn into mass murder, based on blind chance. To me, it showed O'Connor painting a very bleak universe, where men, women, children, and the elderly can be slaughtered at any moment, anywhere. Because people are just plain bad ("Nome, I ain't a good man," The Misfit said after a second as if he had considered her statement carefully, "but I ain't the worst in the world neither."). I also found it to be quite humorous in parts (Red Sam road signs, repetition of "We've had an ACCIDENT!" etc.), as with many of her stories. The entry-level Christian-speak of the grandmother struck me as accurate dialogue, considering the character, the time period, area of the country where she lived/was most likely raised, and most notably, the situation. Many, many people, even the most faithless, cry out to god/Jesus when facing their demise. I never would have surmised that this ridiculous old woman was somehow a vehicle for religious teaching, inspiration, and eventual salvation. All that said, regardless of the author's true intent, the feelings of dread and horror gifted to me by that story remain potent, and powerful. I adore it. | |||||||||||
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03-03-2017 | #47 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: The Ending of True Detective
Don't be too hard on Faulkner. Writers who can't pen uplifting and treacly sentiments seldom win Nobels. Everyone wants a nice speech. And most authors would kill for an award.
There is nothing in O'Conner's story to justify that reading LOL. I suspect she came up with that interpretation some time after she wrote it. Maybe that was the story she wished she had written. | |||||||||||
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03-03-2017 | #48 | |||||||||||
Chymist
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Re: The Ending of True Detective
The opening pages of As I Lay Dying, where a mother watches her son construct a coffin for her just outside her window, is pretty harrowing stuff for that time, and such a fantastic way to start a novel.
I'll always have a soft spot for Faulkner for that. | |||||||||||
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03-03-2017 | #49 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: The Ending of True Detective
Richard Kostelanetz, is it? Never heard of him. But at least now I know I can freely disregard anything else he has to say without missing much. | |||||||||||
Who provideth for the raven his food?
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03-04-2017 | #50 | |||||||||||
Grimscribe
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Re: The Ending of True Detective
I think the story is very well done, with the Christian themes handled, and indeed discharged, artfully, but Flannery O'Connor's own interpretation does seem to stretch in places beyond anything that is in the text (especially the bit about the old lady's gesture growing like a mustard seed in the Misfit's heart and turning him into the "prophet he was meant to become"). I can see how that might be a further development of the story and the theological connotations that are already there; it isn't an arbitrary add-on; but the story is more powerful for me if the meanings stick closer to the text. I haven't read As I Lay Dying. I love the "Appendix" section of The Sound and the Fury, which Faulkner added sixteen years after the novel's original publication. For me it's an essential part of the novel, but it can perhaps be read independently. Beautiful, stunning, amazing: I also love the opening paragraph of Absalom, Absalom!, which I quoted here years ago in another thread: Yeah, don't strain yourself. I'm sure Kostelanetz would be devastated to hear that "cannibal cop" is now freely disregarding his work. | |||||||||||
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