Nihilist poseurs and tiresome decadent rebels?

[Evans]

Quote Originally Posted by Robert Adam Gilmour

Not really a rant. I love this forum and I like most of the people here but on occasion I roll my eyes at some statements about existence or human life, not because I completely disagree (sometimes I do, sometimes I dont) but the manner in which it's expressed. It can seem a bit performative. Sometimes they're talking about the meaninglessness of everything, in a manner perhaps a bit too grand and majestic for someone who believes that. Or maybe I've misunderstood them? Why does nihilism sometimes attract poseurs, with sometimes fascist leanings? I'd like to know exactly what inspired the depiction of nihilists in The Big Lebowski. It's funny to imagine them based on real people. In dark and heavy music in particular there is a lot of this. Even some musicians I deeply respect define themselves too much in opposition to the people they don't like. I don't believe you can properly flourish if you focus on being the opposite of people you hate, you might end up even being a sort of similar yet distorted mirror image of them. Boyd Rice exudes some of these qualities so much I don't really want to listen to his music. I recently read a negative review of Huysmans that suggests he's a bit like some of this. Is he? Is it a part of decadent art to be selfconsciously outrageous? Thoughts?

The term Nihilism is unhelpful here. In some cases what we have is a form or derivative of Nietzschean where the focus is on an intoxicating aesthetic (indeed the pursuit of this aesthetic, itself arbitrary and like all else unjustifiable, becomes the sole imposed telos of existence). Even if they do not consciously admit this to be the case/or take it to its logical conclusions it is this kind of 'Nihilism' which has a big place in the alternative music community. There's a number of reasons for this e.g. the traditional Dionysian role of music and the historical influence of Nietzsche on Euro-Paganism and the counter-culture right.

Death In June - Death Is The Martyr Of Beauty - YouTube

Huysmans is a different case. As an individual he was neurotically sensitive to both visual ugliness and beauty. The French Naturalist school of literature from which he emerged also made a point of focusing on the most grimy and downbeat aspects of modern life as a way to scandalize and (sometimes) raise awareness of social corruption. Husymans took the same approach first to illustrate the philosophy of Schopenhauer and later the truth of a certain kind of Catholicism.

Quote Originally Posted by Raul Urraca

Nowadays, any sort of unusual belief-system attracts edgelords. Nihilism is pretty edgy, and fascism is even moreso; I imagine certain people like to combine the two to achieve maximum 9edgy18me. Also, the promise of destroying all moral claims attracts people that are called immoral (such as fascists, along with other political zealots).

I wouldn't deny this connection, however ultimately the two are incompatible. Like any political system Fascism must contain normative elements which of course are incompatible with the denial of objective values.

Quote Originally Posted by Raul Urraca

Certain pessimists / nihilists / antinatalists lack a sense of humor. I try to use humor to soften my rantings on the awfulness of things. A little jocularity goes a long way. Another thing to consider is that people often sound silly whenever they talk about their feelings (especially those of existential dread/despair). I don't think it's a good thing to directly talk about one's feelings. I think the antinatalist / nihilist / pessimist community should devote more time to making good memes and ####posting; IMO this would be very productive.

Productive of what?

Quote Originally Posted by Nirvana In Karma

I second Raul. Life is a joke, so why not laugh?

There is as much reason to laugh as not to laugh, that is none at all. People still have a tendency to dive for moral indignation if one laughs at or wills the suffering of others however.

[Robert Adam Gilmour]

Quote Originally Posted by Evans

I wouldn't deny this connection, however ultimately the two are incompatible. Like any political system Fascism must contain normative elements which of course are incompatible with the denial of objective values.

Whenever I see people like this who are punky Stalinists or cyber bully MRA white nationalists I wonder how they'd feel if they got everything they wanted. Would they be happy being one of millions of conforming squares in the new regime or would they just hate it?
Who are the ones who want an easy life and who needs to be an angry underdog?

[Evans]

Not that it's any secret but I have a higher tolerance level for the 'Nietzschean nihilists' to the Schopenhauerian ones. I've more more sympathy for a man who says 'There is No God so therefore the meaning of the world is an arbitrary posit of my equally arbitrary will' to the one who says 'There is no God so do what I say, feel as I say; get up and fight the good fight!' .

Quote Originally Posted by Robert Adam Gilmour

Whenever I see people like this who are punky Stalinists or cyber bully MRA white nationalists I wonder how they'd feel if they got everything they wanted. Would they be happy being one of millions of conforming squares in the new regime or would they just hate it? Who are the ones who want an easy life and who needs to be an angry underdog?

I can't speak so much for the Stalinist types; I suspect in the Post New Left scenario a great deal of their strength and image comes from a primarily negative oppositional stance. Regarding the 'MRA white nationalists*', I'm only familiar with one of them, and I suspect he would be happy with that state-of-affairs, though by his own logic he would also be happy with a multi-racial society where everyone acted in a certain way (he would merely dismiss the possibility of such a society). Racism is ultimately a difficult one to square with anti-Consequentialism and free will since it makes moral assessments of people based on something other than their behavior as moral agents.

*MRA is a difficult term. If you meant the American pickup-artist 'Game' thing then given the emphasis on personal victory over others it is hard to see how it could serve as the grounds of a stable society. Even the much vaunted Libertarian style society where everyone is free to pursue absolute unbridled competition is unlikely. As the whole thing is meant to be amoral (in which case what bearing does it have on political proposals?) it is hard to see what objection they could give against re-engineering certain standards of sexual desirability through media imaging and social pressure.

[Robert Adam Gilmour]

Quote Originally Posted by Evans

it is hard to see what objection they could give against re-engineering certain standards of sexual desirability through media imaging and social pressure.

Not quite sure what you're referring to in this part.

[ToALonelyPeace]

I try to listen to some of Boyd Rice's songs, and the common messages seem to be about this persecution complex they have against value systems. Society's values are viewed as delusional--chains which keep them back--and a great upheaval needs to happen for things to be "right" again.
Nihilism explains their symptoms, and fascism as one of the solutions.

I'm not sure what you mean by poseur. Boyd Rice appears genuine in his beliefs.

If you know about Boyd Rice, what do you think of Death in June?

[Justin Isis]

Quote Originally Posted by Karnos

His fixation with Might is Right politics is a notable dent on his music. Everything is about strength, and crushing the weak, and jada jada jada... there is no variation, no evolution, no nothing. Just the same boring crap.

Transgressive art is a kind of Mannerism. Things that actually require sustained strength (both mental and physical), like being a farmer or managing multiple properties, or running a drug cartel in a developing country, are almost never activities engaged in by transgressive artists, or artists extolling "strength."

Let's compare Nietzsche and Brigham Young. Nietzsche is a favorite of edge lords, and Brigham Young is not. Yet Nietzsche was a sickly academic working in German philology who died in pitiable mental and physical condition without descendants, while Brigham Young was a military, political and spiritual leader who more or less held the entire U.S. national government at bay and died with legions of descendants. I'm pretty certain that in every definition of "strength" we could give, Brigham Young would demolish Nietzsche.

Clearly, Young was much more of a superman than Nietzsche, although entirely in service of ideas most of us would consider silly (sorry if there are any Mormons reading this).

Thing is, this is pretty par for the course in human history. Note that Young didn't make up his own ideas, they were cribbed from Prophet Smith, who was a bit of a charlatan to be honest (trying to find buried treasure, dicking about with magic stones, writing King James fan fiction, etc). You often see this - another example would be the Nation of Islam, which was founded by another dodgy vanishing trickster type, Wallace D. Fard, and then carried into great seriousness by passionate community organisers like Elijah Muhammad.

Decadent or Neo-Decadent art requires a high degree of civilization to come about. You can't spend all your time creating artistic beauty if you're in a war zone or trying to support a large family. You can only have a Flaubert or Huysmans once you’ve got a society that allows a high degree of leisure, and is relatively permissive. It’s the same reason the Marquis de Sade was a MARQUIS and not a Breton peasant or whatever.

[Acutely decayed]

Quote Originally Posted by Justin Isis

You can't spend all your time creating artistic beauty if you're in a war zone

although some of the finest decadent art emerges as conditions for it's creation collapses I think, or perhaps this is only true in retrospect and because of our love of the liminal, because everything is in decay...



" what do you think of Death in June?"

death in june Forever Loves Decay - YouTube

but have they done anything lately?

I feel allegedly unhappy people are accused of pretence more than allegedly happy people. There are no doubt many Rust Cohle wannabes running around, but I don't see why anybody posting a Carl Sagan image they barely understand on social media doesn't court the same accusations of pretentiousness.

My personal inner suicidal and depressed nature is so detached from the outer universe that I don't understand many unhappy nihilists. Nietzsche's teachings in particular seem to be championing positive values of self-determination and intellectual freedom when placed in their correct context of a society under religious tyranny.

[Justin Isis]

Quote Originally Posted by James

Nietzsche's teachings in particular seem to be championing positive values of self-determination and intellectual freedom when placed in their correct context of a society under religious tyranny.

The society Nietzsche inhabited was relatively permissive. If it hadn't been, he wouldn't have been able to maintain a university position, much less publish his ideas. Actual religious tyranny is where they just kill you. : )

Quote Originally Posted by Justin Isis

The society Nietzsche inhabited was relatively permissive.

Relatively permissive compared to other societies, but still tyrannical in its inculcation of supposedly objective, rigid, unquestionable values among the populace.